Author Topic: bomber formations  (Read 7440 times)

Offline Zacherof

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #150 on: June 26, 2013, 11:36:11 PM »
Oh WAIT, I GOT IT.

1 24 bomber formation per hour, the pilot chosen by lottery.

Flame on.

I so look forward to the argument for this one.    :lol
  :huh
Hmm and it cost perks to enter lottery :banana: :banana: :banana:

A tweaked idea but I like it. Formations of 6 would be the  max unlotterized if this were implemented

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Offline gyrene81

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #151 on: June 27, 2013, 07:33:50 AM »
lol, looks like Muzik is going franzvondramaqueen in this discussion...calm down bud. there is some legitimacy to the negativity and it should be addressed. some of what you're envisioning would require a lot of work to implement and would garner little return on investment.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #152 on: June 27, 2013, 07:36:21 AM »

[hissy-fit]


Seriously? If you don't get a response you like you have a hissy-fit?  :lol

Offline Zacherof

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #153 on: June 27, 2013, 09:55:42 AM »
What started offf as fun discussion has now turned into superflous topic responses


  :banana: :banana: :banana: :aok
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 11:09:39 AM by Zacherof »
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Offline Wiley

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #154 on: June 27, 2013, 10:30:59 AM »

I don't make the game, I just made a suggestion. That suggestion included the absolute basics that would work in game without being ideal and more advance suggestions that would take a considerable amount more work.

Is that clear enough for you? Should I repeat my sentiments here so that you can understand better? ...adding this feature without other changes in the game would be an injustice. It could be done, but it wouldn't be ideal.

'Not ideal' spelled 'completely broken'.  'Dependent' must mean different things to you and me.

Quote
And lets just get one thing out in the open for anyone who doesn't know that you're objections here are 90% more likely based on your petty little grudge against me than any other factor. I wonder how far I'd have to go back in your posts to find you agreeing with similar changes or ideas. Maybe even your own suggestions.

LOL "petty grudge"?  I'm sorry, who are you again?

I'm done with this anyway, as it looks like your persecution complex just kicked in.  Good luck with your complete game redesign idea.

Wiley.
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Offline asterix

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #155 on: June 27, 2013, 10:33:45 AM »
That little emoticons knowing wink is hilariously ironic being that you don't know what the idea was. No one ever said that single or 3 plane formations would be restricted by hour slots. Only the large formations.
That is not what I was writing about. I replied to your idea of restricting large formations. I wrote that I understand why some bombers are already restricted by perk cost, but not allowing subscribers to fly buffs at all because of total number or slot restriction would make some quite unhappy.

If one player logs on and wants to take a large formation of buffs to bomb something, but he is not allowed to do so because of the restriction. He/she would be unhappy. The player uses small formation or does something else, but the waiting list is long. So what if he logs on some other time with the same intent only to find out that the restriction applies to him again. Wouldn`t that be frustrating?

With "How about restricting the total number of buffs controlled by a single player to 3, ...oh wait that is already done  ;)." I was merely trying to make a humorous hint that the current system of 3 buffs may be better restriction than what you had in mind. Did not want to be rude or make fun of somebody.

24 bombers controlled by one player seems unbalancing to me too, because in my opinion single fighter pilot should have a reasonable chance in stopping one buff player getting to target and sending him/her back to tower. I believe that large formations should consist of many players.

24 seems too large of a force to be controlled by a single player, that is why I called it unbalancing. Say every country has 25 online players during offpeak hours. 4 people decide to make a strats bombing mission. 1 person could take 1 formation of 24 buffs because of the formation restriction. Other three could take escort fighters. 24buffs with 3 escort fighters vs 4 attacking fighters would be unbalancing although the number of players would be 4 vs 4. 24 buffs with 3 escort fighters vs 8 attacking fighters seems better, but there would be 4 vs 8 players. this would create imbalance in other fights happening at the same time.

I believe that large formations should consist of many players because player vs player experience is the main thing that draws me to online games. "Come and fight players all around the world" draws me to AH not "Come and fight large AI gunned armadas". I am not talking about technical issues involved with large formations, but emotional. For me it just feels different to attack something that has a real person at the controls to fight back. Maybe for someone else too, that is why I am pessimistic about the large single player controlled bomber formation. I am expressing my views about the general concept presented in this topic. I have no other reasons for arguing.
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Offline muzik

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #156 on: June 27, 2013, 01:48:52 PM »

Seriously? If you don't get a response you like you have a hissy-fit?  :lol

I got no problem with opposing arguments, I just don't tolerate repeated underhanded personal jabs no matter how minor. Especially by a shading troll.

And once again, your arguments get slapped down and you revert to childish jabs. How many times have avoided responding to the arguments now? Hell, the post before last you didn't even use words in your response, you just posted a pic.  :lol  You couldn't make an intelligent argument if your life depended on it.

Hissy fit? I'm just telling it like it is. Your retardedness knows no bounds, Paratrooper Drone boy.



I'm sorry, who are you again?

Read through your old posts if you're having trouble with your wits again.



Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline Arlo

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #157 on: June 27, 2013, 01:56:56 PM »
... I just don't tolerate repeated underhanded personal jabs no matter how minor. Especially by a shading troll.

And once again, your arguments get slapped down and you revert to childish jabs. How many times have avoided responding to the arguments now? Hell, the post before last you didn't even use words in your response, you just posted a pic.  :lol  You couldn't make an intelligent argument if your life depended on it.

Hissy fit? I'm just telling it like it is. Your retardedness knows no bounds, Paratrooper Drone boy.

Read through your old posts if you're having trouble with your wits again.


Huh. I dunno, man. Maybe you oughta be the one reading through my old posts instead of instructing Wiley to dig through his if you think anything I've posted justifies your present behavior. I'm even willing to stand third party judgement regarding my behavior versus yours, since you seem a bit out of control at the moment ... to me.

Eh, I wasn't impressed by your wish and gave reason why. The worst thing I've said to you, so far, is that you're having a hissy-fit .... and that's just because you certainly seem to be. I'm not one to report the sort of juvie behavior you're exhibiting. But I can't speak for everyone else.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 02:16:03 PM by Arlo »

Offline muzik

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #158 on: June 27, 2013, 01:59:59 PM »
lol, looks like Muzik is going FransvonsmackdownKing thankyouverymuch in this discussion...calm down bud. there is some legitimacy to the negativity and it should be addressed. some of what you're envisioning would require a lot of work to implement and would garner little return on investment.



Fixed   :D

I must salute you and thank you for the discussion Gyrene. It's been a pleasant surprise. I hope we can continue with it. But when someone repeatedly ducks arguments and has nothing to offer other than underhanded attempts at humor and deflection, I have to call it like I see it. Especially an admitted troll who most likely has been shading on the bbs for years now.

I realize the idea is more than just a "give us a Spitfire Mark 2,345." It wasn't intended to be quick toss in.

Any idea that involves any real changes to the game is not going to be simple or without additional game changes to go with it. Even the submarine wish isn't as simple as just throwing it into the game and it's nothing more than a new vehicle. It would change the game enough to require checks and balances and almost guarantee other significant game changes.

As for how much work my idea would take. The objects are already in game.

If I understand correctly, the strat city is a single object, perhaps with smaller objects attached, that is placed on new maps. This is why I suggested the point value of the entire city could be a fairly simple change. I don't know if the roads are separate objects or just a skin, but the same would apply if they were individual objects.

The same would go for other targets we already have in game or with large rail yards or other objects that could come later.

Slightly more challenging issues would be AI gunners and bomb dispersal. But again we already have features in the game with the same function so it may be a simple matter of adapting already coded functions.

Developing new 3d objects and artwork is the majority of the labor in this game. Little if anything we discussed involved new objects. Most was just changing values and perhaps adding new rules and definitions. So I don't believe this is a monumental undertaking.

The return or appeal we just have to disagree on. As interesting as the new wingman feature sounds I don't believe it lives up to the original idea. It may be more practical, but it doesn't support all the intended benefits. But, it's a good step in the right direction and might eventually indicate interest in this. I'm interested in seeing how big some bomber raids get.

My guess is that the lonewolf gameplay that has always been most common will be what keeps bomber guys on solo missions and supports what I have stated all along, after the initial novelty wears off, large formations would end up being 1 or 2 guys on their own doing their own thing.
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Offline muzik

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #159 on: June 27, 2013, 04:06:42 PM »
only to find out that the restriction applies to him again. Wouldn`t that be frustrating?


Yes it would. Which is exactly why I don't advocate that idea as MY PERSONAL preference OR the perk controls that Gyrene prefers. I don't believe players should have to fly countless hours to achieve the ability to play better aspects of the game.

I do believe certain things need to be moderated which at this point is only accomplished by the perk system.

If Gyrene is right, then there wont be that many people interested in flying large formations so the limit wouldn't be a problem would it?

Anyhow, by your logic, we should do away with the perk system and let 262s run amuk because it's too frustrating.

I don't like the restriction but it was suggested as a concession until other game changes provided different means of control.


I was merely trying to make a humorous hint that the current system of 3 buffs may be better restriction than what you had in mind. Did not want to be rude or make fun of somebody.

You know what I think? I think Hitech had my idea in the first place but was worried about computing power and overwhelming numbers 15 years ago so he settled on 3. Now I think he may soon have to consider the games future and that computing power is 5x what it was when he added formations.


24 seems too large of a force to be controlled by a single player, that is why I called it unbalancing. Say every country has 25 online players during offpeak hours. 4 people decide to make a strats bombing mission. 1 person could take 1 formation of 24 buffs because of the formation restriction. Other three could take escort fighters. 24buffs with 3 escort fighters vs 4 attacking fighters would be unbalancing although the number of players would be 4 vs 4. 24 buffs with 3 escort fighters vs 8 attacking fighters seems better, but there would be 4 vs 8 players. this would create imbalance in other fights happening at the same time.

Actually, that would be realistic. Bombers almost always outnumbered the attackers and escorts in the ETO strategic offensive.

Your definition of unbalanced seems to be anything that is not 1 player to 1 player or that an encounter has to result in one team losing and one team winning. It's not that simple.

The game is for fun. Why cant the bomber pilot survive and the fighter pilots land a few kills? You said it yourself, frustrating customers is not a great idea. Don't you think a new guy might be less frustrated if he survives some of his first missions? Do you think 3 bombers is enough to give him that fair chance?

Large formations of 24 bombers would cause unbalance by dominating the game by destroying everything. We already discussed that problem by suggesting changing the strats along with other possible game changes.

Balance has absolutely nothing to do with how many fighters attack a bomber formation. Htc has repeatedly rejected suggestions to "auto balance" the game population and there are lopsided fights and hordes every day. The 4 v 4 scenario is not in the realm of logical possibility because we don't balance attackers and defenders when we launch missions and we never will because unpredictability and  chaos are part of what makes it fun.

I believe that large formations should consist of many players because player vs player experience is the main thing that draws me to online games.

Stop exaggerating. Don't tell me you have never shot down a drone in the game or never will.

We choose online because 1v1 FIGHTER COMBAT is better than fighting drones. Bombers fly in a straight line while you shoot them down. It's like clubbing baby seals. That's NOT the challenge you are referring to is it!?

I am not talking about technical issues involved with large formations, but emotional. For me it just feels different to attack something that has a real person at the controls to fight back.

So when you attack drone formations now, you dont allow any of the guns to kill you other than the one with a real person behind it?

You are trying to suggest to me that it's better that a bomber pilot has an equal chance as you do in your fighter. It's skill v skill right?

Wrong. The bomber pilot has to jump from one gun to another to shoot at you. Then he has to understand that the lead from every gun on the bomber is different. He has to lose sight of you because he cant just turn his head as opposed to RL when there are multiple people on multiple bombers tracking your every move. F3 helps mitigate those disadvantages, but doesnt make it an even fight.

Bomber pilots are at a disadvantage in AH and always have been. Killing them is easy. You're inflating your ego if you think that taking out bombers as they are now is a fair fight.

Thanks for expressing your views.

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Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline Zacherof

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Re: bomber formations
« Reply #160 on: June 27, 2013, 04:23:54 PM »
Drones are a double edge sword. The guns kill, but at the cost of not moving.

Now that being said, there are a few options the bombers currently van do to prolong thier life, if not defleck the attacker.

Going into a climb, then diving after puts a large gap between main bomber and guns, as the drones are still climbing :rolleyes:

Now that being said, NOE bombers and 40k bombers ahave an advantage over fighters. It takes more time and space for a fighter to move at that altitude, and down on the deck, by being low, you force opponants to to attack from other angles by denying belly shots :old:
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