Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?

[Gixer]

When the US debt reaches 110% it will be a prelude to wwIII.

Hold onto your butts, you have the money, we have the stealth, bombs and missiles. We can and will take everything you have, survival demands it. Human nature will make it so.

You miss a key point, it takes a strong economy to maintain a strong army, and that's been the case ever since the bronze age.

Without a strong economy you won't have the stealth,bombs and missiles to go to war with.



<S>...-Gixer

[Saurdaukar]

Just a small note I didn't see mentioned re: the 35.

This is second hand from someone on the project, mind you, but I am told that most of the wing loading figures are misleading.  The explanation I received was that the traditional formula for calculating wing loading does not take the fuselage into account which, in the case of the 35, does actually produce lift in some capacity.

He also echoed what has already been mentioned in this thread with respect to raw maneuverability vs. the ability to engage targets well outside of the frontal cone (the latter trumping the former in practicality).

[GScholz]

The fuselage produces a lot of lift in most if not all modern fighters. With the F-15 the fuselage generates so much lift that an Israeli F-15 managed to land safely despite losing a whole wing in a mid-air collision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHADAKreoPY

[Shifty]

He was attacking this Chinese fellow here, when his F-35 was shot down by a drone launched from that lazer powered rail gun over there.

[Tank-Ace]

You miss a key point, it takes a strong economy to maintain a strong army, and that's been the case ever since the bronze age.

Without a strong economy you won't have the stealth,bombs and missiles to go to war with.
<S>...-Gixer

We have a crap load of conventional munitions in storage. Enough to make one hell of a preemptive strike, or a good go at a protracted war. And USA has plenty of raw materials, even if we're not exploiting them right now. And without foreign trade, the value of the dollar is pretty much whatever the hell the government says it is on US soil.

Not saying it would be pretty, but the reality is that the USA, like Russia and China, isn't completely dependent on foreign trade to remain a functioning nation, like virtually all other countries in the world. We can get oil, we have timber, and metal ore, and manufacturing. I mean the fact that for the most part, the war wouldn't realistically take place on US for soil speaks a lot about the type of fight it would be.

[GScholz]

I don't know about China, but the US, EU and Russia have more than enough domestic oil production to keep their military going. Oil production facilities would be some of the first economic/strategic targets to be hit in any conflict though.

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

He was attacking this Chinese fellow here, when his F-35 was shot down by a drone launched from that lazer powered rail gun over there.



(Image removed from quote.)

Thanks shifty. 

[Stellaris]

There's a tremendous amount of very detailed information on the F-35 and its potential adversaries on the ausairpower.net site.  I'll warn you in advance they are no fans of the F-35.  However when you take a look at what the PAK-FA puts on the table in terms of sensors (IRST, 360 degree X band AESA, conformal L band, LRF), weapons (TV and GF multispectral missiles), performance (Mach 2+, 3D thrust vectoring), and it's own stealth - you can see the the F-35 is not even in the same category. 

Of course, it shouldn't be in the same category.  The F-35 is a strike plane, not a fighter, and is designed to operate in skies swept clear of opposition by the F-22.  PAK-FA is designed to take on the F-22, and does it with technology 20 years newer than the Raptor.  L-Band and IRST are both stealth-immune, and I'm sure I don't have to tell anyone here about that Sukhoi leads the world in BSM and TV for the close-in fight.

Any nation that buys the F-35 is going to have to accept that Venezuela and Vietnam will be flying better planes.

[GScholz]

L-band radar is far from "stealth-immune" and far too inaccurate to provide any form of weapon guidance. The L-band radar can't even provide altitude data. IR sensors have very limited range in clear weather, and are almost useless in bad weather. The second a platform turns on its L-band radar it is detected by the F-22/35 at a much greater range than the radar can detect the stealth. It's like searching for the enemy with a flashlight at night.

The problem with sites like ausairpower.net is that they are filled with morons who are totally clueless to the realities of air warfare, and who not only believe in any magical new anti-stealth device, but overstate their effectiveness to the absurd. The people in the know have long since given up.

[Shifty]

Thanks shifty. 

 

[Stellaris]

@G-Scholz - You're correct L-Band doesn't localize well, but the the L-Band radar on the PAK-FA is not there for weapons guidance, it's there to cue the IRST and X-Band.  It could also be used to LoB for BVR missiles - and bear in mind Ks 172 is designed to do exactly that.  Those in the know, know that the L-Band will be spread-spectrum and thus LPI like any other AESA.  The ALR-94 ought to be L-Band capable, but I'd be amazed if it has the performance in that band to detect SS LB at much distance - that's asking a lot given the wavelength even with dynamic antenna.   Thus don't expect the L-Band to be detected before it detects, quite the opposite.  Certainly ALR-94 won't get better localization than the emitter at any range.  As with APG-77 the Su will share the PRNG over the datalink so any 2 are now a bistatic TR pair.  That can only improve localization.

Same same IRST.  Yes weather degrades it, but it is a powerful passive sensor, and the F-22 doesn't have one.  Should F22 only operate in bad weather?

None of this is magical anti-stealth technology.  Neither is stealth some magical invisibility cloak.  This is the ongoing interplay of measure and countermeasure and counter-countermeasure.  I'm not here to play my fighter can beat up your fighter.  My only point is that the PAK-FA is built to take on the F-22 and has capabilities that make this possible and credible.  The F-35 isn't in the same league.  It was never meant to be. 

[Rich46yo]

http://www.conservativedailynews.com/2012/11/evaluating-the-pakfa/ I dont have time to really get into this.

Firstly, despite APA’s claims to the contrary, the PAKFA, like the F-35, can carry only 4 A2A missiles internally, while the F-22 can carry eight (i.e. twice as much). Thus, in any A2A combat, the F-22 gets four freebie shots at the PAKFA, and given that the Pk of any missile will never be 100%, this can be compensated only with a large missile load. By virtue of carrying twice as many missiles as the PAKFA, the F-22  stands a twice higher chance of killing the Russian fighter than of being shot down by it.

Secondly, the Irbis-E radar with which the PAKFA will likely be equipped is inferior to the F-22′s APG-77 radar.

Thirdly, despite APA’s claims to the contrary, the PAKFA has a WORSE thrust/weight ratio and a WORSE wing loading ratio than the F-22. At 50% fuel plus a full internal missile load, the PAKFA has a T/W ratio of 1.19:1 and a wing loading ratio of between 330-470 kg/sq m, more likely closer to the higher than to the lower figure, while the F-22 has a T/W ratio of 1.26:1 and a wing loading ratio of 375 kg/sq m.

So, by 2016, the Russians will be flying an aircraft that will still be inferior in terms of aerodynamic and kinematic performance, radar, and especially missile load, to the F-22, and which, absent significant redesign, will not be stealthy at all if viewed from below or from the rear.

Conclusion??? We will be forced to either develop another air superiority fighter and/or dust off the F22 production line. Maybe open it for exports.

[GScholz]

Stellaris, you're comparing the F-22 and F-35 in service today to a Russian pipe dream. The F-22 and F-35 have dominance in sensors today, and will continue to do so in the foreseeable future. You're saying the PAK-FA has IRST and the F's don't... Bullsheit. The F-35 has the EO DAS, and by block 40 so will the F-22, in addition to a host of other improvements.

[artik]

Stellaris, you're comparing the F-22 and F-35 in service today to a Russian pipe dream.

F-35 is not in service... it is still in testing phase with huge amount of problems. It is on much better stage than Sukhoi PAK FA but it is not ready yet.


Also small additional note, when  (if) it would be ready it would still cost much less than F-22 and F-35... So even if  F-22 would be superior over final version of PAK FA, it is still not produced any more (at least now) and costs much more so...

[Stellaris]

@GScholz - no, I did not say that F-35 did not have IRST.  My last post specifically addressed your points on PAK-FAs sensors with reference to the F-22 The F-22 doesn't have IRST.  It's proposed to put one in, but proposals aren't programs, and block 40 is currently unfunded.  No reason it couldn't be of course.

F-35 will have DAS, which is actually pretty cool, but it sure isn't in service.  They just announced the squadron-service dates as between 2015 and 2018.

Anyway, if I wanted to play my-plane-can-beat-up-your-plane, I'd get in the MA and go flying.  My only real point is, the PAK-FA and F-22 are comparable as fighters, the F-35 is not, which is unsurprisingly since it's designed to be a strike plane.  Nations that buy the F-35 and use it as a frontline fighter are going to be as foolish as those that bought the F-104 and used it for ground attack.