Bring on the Hos

[Arlo]

A HO takes 2; One to initiate and one to take the bait.

 It is incredibly easy to avoid them.

Lies. If a guy wants to HO-ram you, you're going to take damage regardless of what you do. Pull up? Shot to the belly. Dive down? Shot to the cockpit. Break left? Shot to the wing. Break right? Shot to the wing. The only reason the HO-rammer fails to kill you is because 90% of the time, it's a scrub who can't aim worth a dime in the first place. If a top notch pilot wanted to HO you, you'd take damage no matter what you did. 

Wow. You don't know how to evade the HO so it can't be done?

DA. Give me a 410/190/110. You try to evade it. Bet you you can't.

Nope, it's true. Either that or there are less "top notch" pilots that I thought.

How does one avoid a HO then.  I am fairly ok in a 38 and often get HO'd, the typical spit16 driver who comes straight up at you as you are trying to out climb him.  Obviously to gain speed I need to put the nose down and going in for the kill see the spixteen coming straight up at me.  I try to avoid but I get shot probably 50% of the time and more often than I would like, as I divert, they divert and turn it into a HO/Ram as I do not have enough reaction time to get totally out the way. 

I would love to know how to avoid the HO, I see a few people saying, "easy to avoid", ok, explain how?

Mmmmbecause you're a practiced HO expert? I 've been successfully dodging HOs for a decade and a half. After you embarrass yourself trying to show me how great a HOer you are, I'll teach you.  :D

:lol Never thought I'd see the day where someone asks to get HOed. Sure. What's your IGN pal? And afterwards, maybe we can get an actually duel match going on.  ;)

Plenty of prancing ninnies tried to ho my B-25H yesterday...    :t

On a side note, that one I'll never be able to understand... A guy who is so timid he won't engage at all if he doesn't hold the whole deck and an additional pair of jokers, who makes his only attack attempt a head on where he puts himself into the most precarious position he can allowing his enemy to have a solution on him...

I mean  :headscratch:  :huh  :confused: :confused:

[nrshida]

Then surely you are capable of offering a different one and we can discuss the differences.  

Well your definition seems very narrow. What if two aircraft are merging on a convergent course, and one turns away slightly to avoid the HO / ram and the other shoots. Is this a HO?

Secondly when engaged already with one or more cons, and another one comes into the fray, you have insufficient airspeed to pull G out of a guns solution and get shot in the face, is that a HO?


I think yes in both cases (and know many who think likewise) and in both cases only one aircraft has a guns solution.

[Arlo]

It amazes me that people will try and HO a B-25H.  Had one come at me and I blasted him a 1000 yards out with the 75mm cannon.

ack-ack

Don't scare Arlo like that.

ill take ya up on that

I don't find head-ons hard to avoid unless I'm very slow, and if I'm very slow with the enemy being able to point his guns at me, I deserve to get hit.

In the cases where I have decent speed, I just fly off angle to the attacker, then pull g's in a different direction back toward him (still off angle, but a different off angle) as he comes into the about the 800-yard range.  It is rare that I take any hits, and when I do, they are usually not major hits.

Bet I can every time....

The odds are in favor of the person evading the HO Titanic.  I could avoid HO shots all day man. It isn't that hard. You get unlucky sometimes for sure.

Yea, if you're already making maneuvers to avoid at 2K away, then it's not hard. But in a multi con engagement where you only have a short distance to react (400-600), then I would love to see someone avoid a HO like that.

So, you're saying you're the best at HOing when you're not only in German metal but the other guy is distracted and he doesn't see you coming? Well, I don't know about everyone else, but I'm right impressed.  

HO rant/whines are overrated.  

Yes. The guy who gets on 200 almost everyday ask for some one to duel likes to HO. Yes. The guy who asked people to up from a field today because there were no fights is the best at HOing. Yep. Boy, I sure love to HO. I mean I haven't made countless posts about promoting dogfights and fighting til the death at all. Nope, HOing and vulching is all I do.

Oh, and in case you still don't get it. That first paragraph was sarcasm. Wait, gotta spell it out clearly too. I don't advocate HOing, I simply stated that if someone wanted to HOram you, they will, even if it means they die in the process. Now if you want to go ahead and test this out, I'm willing. Any plane you like, doesn't have to be German, or American or British or Japanese or Italian or Russian.

Dumb people are overrated.

Yes, they are.  

Still waiting boyo. Any time you wanna prove your intelligence, lemme know.

If you only see the guy coming in from 400-600 yards out, that's on you.  If your SA is overwhelmed, I'd think the far more logical whine would be the fact that you're being ganged, rather than what angle you're being shot from.

Never understood why people seem to think they should be able to shout 'HOME FREE!' when their nose is pointed at the other plane.

Wiley.

So if it's a 1v1 and you get HOed, your SA is overwhelmed?

not sure why you would reply in that manner, it is obvious he was replying to your multi con scenario...  

[nrshida]

Is this to be a discussion or an attack on TitanMD (which I do not wish to participate in)?

[Wiley]

Well your definition seems very narrow. What if two aircraft are merging on a convergent course, and one turns away slightly to avoid the HO / ram and the other shoots. Is this a HO?

Secondly when engaged already with one or more cons, and another one comes into the fray, you have insufficient airspeed to pull G out of a guns solution and get shot in the face, is that a HO?


I think yes in both cases (and know many who think likewise) and in both cases only one aircraft has a guns solution.

To me, I consider it an attempted HO if I'm headed toward an enemy and from the time I see him, all I see is -o-, and at around 1000 yards I start hearing gunfire as I do my avoidance thing.  If I'd so chosen, I could've put my pipper on him and returned fire.

As to the second scenario, that is more the fault of the being outnumbered.  I've been on both sides of that one, and if someone's TnBing with some stuff on the deck when the guy come in to get him, the low plane can go full circle a couple times from the time the plane coming in commits to the time he shoots.  The fact that they wind up meeting nose to nose is incidental, and IMO one of the few times the guy on the bottom is justified in taking the HO shot.

Wiley.

[titanic3]

He has to feel big somehow. Still haven't seen a PM or a time set up. 

[Arlo]

Well your definition seems very narrow. What if two aircraft are merging on a convergent course, and one turns away slightly to avoid the HO / ram and the other shoots. Is this a HO?

Secondly when engaged already with one or more cons, and another one comes into the fray, you have insufficient airspeed to pull G out of a guns solution and get shot in the face, is that a HO?


I think yes in both cases (and know many who think likewise) and in both cases only one aircraft has a guns solution.

Think of head-on attacks as jousting. Two knights (so to speak) sinking spurs and aiming their lances at each others chest.

In your first example you are describing someone avoiding or attempting to avoid a head-on attack. So we have one pilot attempting and one avoiding. At that point, there's no joust. If the attacker presses and manages to hit, it's a failed maneuver on the defenders part. The key word is defender. That pilot went on the defensive. A head-on attack (joust) involves no defensive technique applied.

(Let me amend this. Bombers can be attacked head-on. This is generally not a mutual thing.)

Your second example involves a situational snap-shot. The attacker that is entering a furball is not capable of keeping his guns looking down the sights of any one specific target. The other planes are maneuvering already, they are engaged. If he manages to hit a plane 'in the face' it is because they turned their plane and the bullet or cannon rounds struck at that moment.

Now, if a plane managed to disengage from the fray and head straight for the lone pilot heading into the fray and they both line up sights on each other to fire (whether both fire, then, or not) ... that is a head-on engagement.

[gyrene81]

Is this to be a discussion or an attack on TitanMD (which I do not wish to participate in)?

looks like an Arlo copy and paste quote frenzy to me...    he could be attempting to create some context but ya never know about them texicans.

Well your definition seems very narrow. What if two aircraft are merging on a convergent course, and one turns away slightly to avoid the HO / ram and the other shoots. Is this a HO?

no and it depends on the situation. most of the time in an initial merge 1v1, it's like a game of chicken, first person to twitch gets shot at, first person to open fire is a ho-tard.

Secondly when engaged already with one or more cons, and another one comes into the fray, you have insufficient airspeed to pull G out of a guns solution and get shot in the face, is that a HO?

I think yes in both cases (and know many who think likewise) and in both cases only one aircraft has a guns solution.

if the sphincter that jumped into the fray is the one that is shooting you in the face right off the bat without any attempt to get a different firing solution, then yes.

[Arlo]

Is this to be a discussion or an attack on TitanMD (which I do not wish to participate in)?

No, this is a discussion about head-on attacks, their actual definition, their actual threat and the tactics involved. TitanMD's involvement is merely what he chooses it to be.

[Arlo]

looks like an Arlo copy and paste quote frenzy to me...    he could be attempting to create some context but ya never know about them texicans.


no and it depends on the situation. most of the time in an initial merge 1v1, it's like a game of chicken, first person to twitch gets shot at, first person to open fire is a ho-tard.

if the sphincter that jumped into the fray is the one that is shooting you in the face right off the bat without any attempt to get a different firing solution, then yes.

I'm responding to both an OP request and a fellow poster's suggestion that the HO topic be a separate one from the original intent of the other thread. 

[nrshida]

To me, I consider it an attempted HO if I'm headed toward an enemy and from the time I see him, all I see is -o-, and at around 1000 yards I start hearing gunfire as I do my avoidance thing.  If I'd so chosen, I could've put my pipper on him and returned fire.

As to the second scenario, that is more the fault of the being outnumbered.  I've been on both sides of that one, and if someone's TnBing with some stuff on the deck when the guy come in to get him, the low plane can go full circle a couple times from the time the plane coming in commits to the time he shoots.  The fact that they wind up meeting nose to nose is incidental, and IMO one of the few times the guy on the bottom is justified in taking the HO shot.

Wiley.

I agree Wiley. Unfortunately I seem to have the most fun trawling around low and / or on my own. It's one of those toaster situations: difficult to strike the balance between underdone and burned. I don't complain about it when they take that shot (there's be no point anyway), it's just clear to me that those ones are more concerned with kills than skills  <shrug>

[Arlo]

He has to feel big somehow. Still haven't seen a PM or a time set up. 

Sorry, the onus is on you to be there for your own parties
and make all the arrangements, doilies or whatever. 

You claimed to be online. This is the second attempt made
to give you a chance to prove your supposed point. We're
having a serious discussion here. If you're up to it, participate.

 

[nrshida]

Think of head-on attacks as jousting. Two knights (so to speak) sinking spurs and aiming their lances at each others chest.

In your first example you are describing someone avoiding or attempting to avoid a head-on attack. So we have one pilot attempting and one avoiding. At that point, there's no joust. If the attacker presses and manages to hit, it's a failed maneuver on the defenders part. The key word is defender. That pilot went on the defensive. A head-on attack (joust) involves no defensive technique applied.

Your second example involves a situational snap-shot. The attacker that is entering a furball is not capable of keeping his guns looking down the sights of any one specific target. The other planes are maneuvering already, they are engaged. If he manages to hit a plane 'in the face' it is because they turned their plane and the bullet or cannon rounds struck at that moment.

Now, if a plane managed to disengage from the fray and head straight for the lone pilot heading into the fray and they both line up sights on each other to fire (whether both fire, then, or not) ... that is a head-on engagement.

I still think firing on the merge is a HO though. I hasten to add I learned this here. This is my first and only flight sim. I also once read in a US Navy manual that a HO was any shot into the front of the 3-9 line.

I generally do not fire into the front half of an aircraft although I do like crossing shots so sometimes it's a dodgy call (especially against something turney like a Zero). Surely I'm not the only one who holds fire sometimes even after the merge?

Anyway, I have HOed a few times myself in my four years of play. Once I tried to HO DrDeath's chog at 1000 yards in a P-39 for laughs, but I missed (narrowly). I accidentally shot my friend in the face on the bottom of a rope attempt, he'd turned in the sun & I couldn't tell front from back and also I once HOed a 190 in a Mosquito when he fired at 1500 yards to see what would happen. It was a big mess.

[Arlo]

I still think firing on the merge is a HO though.

It is if the merge is head-on.

[nrshida]

It is if the merge is head-on.

Aha! But they are always head on, just not necessarily precisely head on.