Bring on the Hos

[BaldEagl]

do you mind showing bighorn how to do it right?  He was only atbthe peak of his game when we tried it lol. Also, please explain how someone holding the trigger down gives you an idea of his estate or where he is going?  I would think that you avoiding shows him where you are going no?

We spent a good hour hoing each other in the da and had removed the skill factor since I was fighting someone better than me.

As for the SA argument, its carp. When I go out looking for a fight my tells me to fly towards the nearest plane. When I am bz with 2 or more guys and a 190 comes in guns blazing I did not fail to see him. I just have no choice due to speed and position. The only fail was the hope that a 4th guy would maybe go find someone else.

But hey, we can all have good SA. Just start at 20K with a friend and make single passes on lower cons. Extend a sector rince and repeat. It would make for a fun game and great scores.

How can anyone claiming to look for a fight endorse sa and ho shots is beyond me lol

SA argument?  Where did I make an SA argument and where did I endorse the HO?

Also note my coments were "in the MA" meaning against typical MA skill levels.  I'd likely not put bighorn or you into that category.

In a diving evasion I know the other guy has to push negative G's to keep guns on.  He'll lose E while I gain E to a point.  Also I'm disapearing under his nose.  I have vis on him, he doesn't on me.  In a rolling evasive I'm going to force him to turn.  I know where I am and where he has to go to maintain guns.

Frankly after all the time you've played this game I'm surprised you don't know how to defeat the HO.

[Changeup]

SA argument?  Where did I make an SA argument and where did I endorse the HO?

Also note my coments were "in the MA" meaning against typical MA skill levels.  I'd likely not put bighorn or you into that category.

In a diving evasion I know the other guy has to push negative G's to keep guns on.  He'll lose E while I gain E to a point.  Also I'm disapearing under his nose.  I have vis on him, he doesn't on me.  In a rolling evasive I'm going to force him to turn.  I know where I am and where he has to go to maintain guns.

Frankly after all the time you've played this game I'm surprised you don't know how to defeat the HO.

Bald,

After re-reading the posts...I don't think Ded's endorsement comment was for you and clearly he knows how to avoid it. 

[dedalos]

SA argument?  Where did I make an SA argument and where did I endorse the HO?

Also note my coments were "in the MA" meaning against typical MA skill levels.  I'd likely not put bighorn or you into that category.

In a diving evasion I know the other guy has to push negative G's to keep guns on.  He'll lose E while I gain E to a point.  Also I'm disapearing under his nose.  I have vis on him, he doesn't on me.  In a rolling evasive I'm going to force him to turn.  I know where I am and where he has to go to maintain guns.

Frankly after all the time you've played this game I'm surprised you don't know how to defeat the HO.

Yeah, started quoting you and responded to several other posts at the same time.   Why am I not surprised that when the argument is lost people resort to the "if you cant defeat it", "can't see it coming" rhetoric   

I think you are making too many assumptions up there or you are just using the situation that fits your argument.  Anything done wrong by your opponent will give you an advantage.  A HO attempt done wrong will also give you an advantage.  I am talking about when it is done right by someone that can actually fight after the HO shot.

Think of it this way.  I like to turn right at the merge and most of the time I will win (maybe not now but for the argument lets pretend that I can still fight lol).  Would it be accurate for me to come here and argue that a right turn always wins the fight?  Is it the right turn that got me the kill or is it what I and the bad guy did after that?  Same for the HO.  It is not the action of pulling the trigger that gave you the win but what you and the HOer did after and prior to that.

As of avoiding it, please feel free to enlighten me on how you do it when you are in a 3 vs 1 and someone comes in to take you out.  No one addresses that situation.  You all talk about your amazing avoiding skillz of diving under the other guys nose as if someone that has been in the game for a while would never expect that move.

Another interesting thing you wrote is that while you can push your nose down to avoid you will gain E.  However, if the bad guy pushes the nose down to keep guns on he will lose E?     

[BaldEagl]

As of avoiding it, please feel free to enlighten me on how you do it when you are in a 3 vs 1 and someone comes in to take you out.  No one addresses that situation.  You all talk about your amazing avoiding skillz of diving under the other guys nose as if someone that has been in the game for a while would never expect that move.

Another interesting thing you wrote is that while you can push your nose down to avoid you will gain E.  However, if the bad guy pushes the nose down to keep guns on he will lose E?     

See my earlier post where I said it was nearly impossible to avoid the HO low on E.  I also said in that post there were several manouvers that can defeat the HO.  I've simply used the diving evasive in reponse to Wiley's test in the DA.

I gain the E advantage because I gave up a little early to make the break but as I pass under the guys nose he has to keep pushing the stick.  Do you agree that a neg G move bleeds E?  If I don't have to keep pushing neg G's and the other guy does it's pretty easy to see where I gain the advantage even though we're both nose down.

Also in my earlier post I think I said I control E not nessesarily gain which I may not want to do if I want to get around as fast as possible.

[Wiley]

So that was you who had that thread.  Will have to exercise my search fu.

As of avoiding it, please feel free to enlighten me on how you do it when you are in a 3 vs 1 and someone comes in to take you out.  No one addresses that situation.  You all talk about your amazing avoiding skillz of diving under the other guys nose as if someone that has been in the game for a while would never expect that move.

What would you do if the same thing happened, and he was on your dead six?  The answer is pretty much the same.  Get shot.  Getting hit low E while being ganged has very little to do with the angle you're being attacked from.  I still say it's a gift if the gangdweeb comes in from the front giving you a firing solution.

Wiley.

[dedalos]

So that was you who had that thread.  Will have to exercise my search fu.

What would you do if the same thing happened, and he was on your dead six? 

Exactly, not always avoidable or easy to avoid or sa related.  That is all I am trying to get across.

[dedalos]

I gain the E advantage because I gave up a little early to make the break but as I pass under the guys nose he has to keep pushing the stick.  Do you agree that a neg G move bleeds E?  If I don't have to keep pushing neg G's and the other guy does it's pretty easy to see where I gain the advantage even though we're both nose down.

Also in my earlier post I think I said I control E not nessesarily gain which I may not want to do if I want to get around as fast as possible.

You are making big assumptions Eagl.  Why do you assume the bad guy has to do it the wrong way?  If you push a little I only have to push a little also right?  You assume that I would have a bad angle to begin with?  What if I have a good angle and I have to push less than you?  In any case, read bighorns post on how to do it right. 

In any engagement you have to assume the other guy will not make a mistake.  You have to rely on your self and not on the other guy.  Sure if someone did what you described you will have an advantage maybe but that would be an indication of his skill level and not a result of pulling the trigger.  What if instead he just sends some tracers your way, cuts throttle a bit and waits for your move?  Do you think flying under someones nose is impossible to follow?

Even a new guy in a fast plane will be able to HO extend rinse and repeat.  He has the advantage in that situation since at best you can only escape with no damage.

[Wiley]

Exactly, not always avoidable or easy to avoid or sa related.  That is all I am trying to get across.

In my experience, low E and being ganged, giving the guy your front is essentially the same as giving him your tail.  You're a non moving target for him to pop.  The few times I've had success when I was avoiding the third or fourth man in when I was low E, I put him straight off my 3 or 9 o'clock and yanked back as hard as I could.

To me, the situation you're describing is somewhat SA related.  I do understand and agree with what you're saying, sometimes you wind up in a situation where getting shot is nearly unavoidable.  When you did what you did to get there was the beginning of you getting killed though.  When you made the decision to get slow when there are multiple bandits in icon range means to me you committed to getting picked at that point.

Edit: Found one of the old threads where Dedalos got somewhat specific:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,248894.msg3059946/topicseen.html#msg3059946

I know some people like to get into the middle of the red guys and take on all comers.  It's just that to me, at that point you're forfeiting all legitimate right to complain about being picked or ganged.  You put yourself there, how it's going to end is inevitable.

Wiley.

[dedalos]

In my experience, low E and being ganged, giving the guy your front is essentially the same as giving him your tail.  You're a non moving target for him to pop.  The few times I've had success when I was avoiding the third or fourth man in when I was low E, I put him straight off my 3 or 9 o'clock and yanked back as hard as I could.

This is an argument about the HOer getting an advantage, not about how easy it is to avoid, how you got there etc.  Although, it sounds like I maybe clueless because I cant figure out how to manage the third guy coming in at light speed when I already have to worry about cutting the angles of the guys trying to get on my 6.  In any case, in that scenario, the HOer has the advantage, no?

To me, the situation you're describing is somewhat SA related.  I do understand and agree with what you're saying, sometimes you wind up in a situation where getting shot is nearly unavoidable.  When you did what you did to get there was the beginning of you getting killed though.  When you made the decision to get slow when there are multiple bandits in icon range means to me you committed to getting picked at that point.

Again, the argument is about the HOer getting an advantage.

I know some people like to get into the middle of the red guys and take on all comers.  It's just that to me, at that point you're forfeiting all legitimate right to complain about being picked or ganged.  You put yourself there, how it's going to end is inevitable.

Wiley.

And again, it is an argument about getting an advantage from a HO shot.  Not a complain.  However, since I like the fighting part of the game, I don;t like it when people go around explaining that it takes 2 to HO, they are easy to avoid, the hoer will be at a disadvantage etc.

[Arlo]

This is an argument about the HOer getting an advantage, not about how easy it is to avoid, how you got there etc.  Although, it sounds like I maybe clueless because I cant figure out how to manage the third guy coming in at light speed when I already have to worry about cutting the angles of the guys trying to get on my 6.  In any case, in that scenario, the HOer has the advantage, no?

Again, the argument is about the HOer getting an advantage.

And again, it is an argument about getting an advantage from a HO shot.  Not a complain.  However, since I like the fighting part of the game, I don;t like it when people go around explaining that it takes 2 to HO, they are easy to avoid, the hoer will be at a disadvantage etc.

Actually, if the argument is now about getting an advantage (post pass) from a HO shot then it has changed. Originally this argument was very much about avoidance of head-ons, ease of such, tactics used and so forth. As things progressed, someone mentioned whether the HOer or the HOee is more likely to be at an advantage if no hits connected. This appears to be your vantage-point in the discussion , presently. And it's not a ridiculous tangent, by any means. But if you're recognizing that you and Wiley are talking about different things, it's not because the argument was never about what Wiley is talking about.

  Just saying ....

Never-the-less ... both arguments on this subject are quite interesting. 

[Wiley]

As for the SA argument, its carp. When I go out looking for a fight my tells me to fly towards the nearest plane. When I am bz with 2 or more guys and a 190 comes in guns blazing I did not fail to see him. I just have no choice due to speed and position. The only fail was the hope that a 4th guy would maybe go find someone else.

Dedalos, this was your first comment in the thread.  All I'm saying is at that point, the HO is the least of your worries at that point because you're under 3 or 4 planes.  Whether the HO gives the third guy in an advantage stacked on top of the totality of advantages he already has in this situation is irrelevant.

I take it from your posts you believe he shouldn't HO you in this situation, because HO's are bad and you should be home free because your nose happens to be pointed at him when he gets in gun range?

Wiley.

[dedalos]

Dedalos, this was your first comment in the thread.  All I'm saying is at that point, the HO is the least of your worries at that point because you're under 3 or 4 planes.  Whether the HO gives the third guy in an advantage stacked on top of the totality of advantages he already has in this situation is irrelevant.

No worries at all.  Most of them will not make it back to base anyway.  My issue is with garbage statements like: "It takes 2 to HO", "Easy to avoid", "Hoer will die easily", "Bad SA" etc,

I take it from your posts you believe he shouldn't HO you in this situation, because HO's are bad and you should be home free because your nose happens to be pointed at him when he gets in gun range?

Wiley.

Look above response.  What he does is his business but I can list a few reasons on why doing that is a stupid move.  Do you think it is a good idea to put your face in front of my guns in that situation?  He can get a better angle and take me out with out any danger to himself, no?  So yeah, HO in that situation is the dumbest thing he could do.   

[BaldEagl]

You are making big assumptions Eagl.  Why do you assume the bad guy has to do it the wrong way?  If you push a little I only have to push a little also right?  You assume that I would have a bad angle to begin with?  What if I have a good angle and I have to push less than you?  In any case, read bighorns post on how to do it right.  

In any engagement you have to assume the other guy will not make a mistake.  You have to rely on your self and not on the other guy.  Sure if someone did what you described you will have an advantage maybe but that would be an indication of his skill level and not a result of pulling the trigger.  What if instead he just sends some tracers your way, cuts throttle a bit and waits for your move?  Do you think flying under someones nose is impossible to follow?

Even a new guy in a fast plane will be able to HO extend rinse and repeat.  He has the advantage in that situation since at best you can only escape with no damage.

OK.  I give up.  Since it's impossible to detail every possible HO merge scenario in a single thread it must be impossible to beat the HO, therefor I shall stop doing so and HO everyone I see.  Thank you for clarifying.

[uptown]

I give everyone the benefit of the doubt on 1st merge. If they ho then game on. I'll shoot them dead in the face 1st chance I get. Especially if (and it usually is) a Spitfire. It seems like 95% of the spits I fight always flat turn right into my nose even though they have the ability to outturn me with ease. I get tired of it and just blast em' back to the tower. Next spitfire please.

[Wiley]

Look above response.  What he does is his business but I can list a few reasons on why doing that is a stupid move.  Do you think it is a good idea to put your face in front of my guns in that situation?  He can get a better angle and take me out with out any danger to himself, no?  So yeah, HO in that situation is the dumbest thing he could do.   

Completely and wholeheartedly agreed.  The only thing I think the guy coming in could do worse from that position would be to not take the shot.

All my point has ever been in this thread is that if you're not in a situation that already has put you behind the 8 ball, the HO is easy to avoid.  If you're in a spot where it's not, you've got far bigger problems than the faceshooting.

Regardless of your two planes' relative orientation, if you're in his gunsight you've messed up in some fashion.  The idea that just because you're head on he shouldn't take the shot is just silly.

The tricky part with testing for how much of an edge it gives the other guy avoiding the HO is, there are so many variables in a fight, it's really rare and difficult to find two guys that are exactly equally matched on any given day.  If I were able to clone myself and fight myself on a good day when the clone was having an off day, the clone would never win a fight.  Same thing with two different guys who are supposedly 'evenly matched'.

Titan and I were somewhat back and forth in our duels, but I don't think the HO had a whole lot to do with who won.  He's somewhat better than I am in a 1v1, I'd say.

Wiley.