Bring on the Hos

[olds442]

First off Arlo... is not......flying a corsair.......What is happening here..
Second @nrshida If he didn't get hit I think it counts. Thats like saying well you know you suck at flying because one time I COULD have shot you down but didn't.

[Changeup]

First off Arlo... is not......flying a corsair.......What is happening here..
Second @nrshida If he didn't get hit I think it counts. Thats like saying well you know you suck at flying because one time I COULD have shot you down but didn't.

Shida was explaining the finer points of how HOers can gain position during the HO-merge.  Shida was explaining how he noticed that the pictures indicated that due to the HO-merge avoidance move, the hurricane was still vulnerable.  What difference does it make if you avoid the HO only to die seconds later to the same pilot because you pushed a bad position while avoiding the HO?

[olds442]

Shida was explaining the finer points of how HOers can gain position during the HO-merge.  Shida was explaining how he noticed that the pictures indicated that due to the HO-merge avoidance move, the hurricane was still vulnerable.  What difference does it make if you avoid the HO only to die seconds later to the same pilot because you pushed a bad position while avoiding the HO?

I actually think its the other way around. When someone goes for a HO I wait for them to start shooting then break downwards than loop back up. If they turn I can come up and over and inside. If they go vertical I will be under them so my loop will be lower than their loop allowing me to get into a guns position.

[dedalos]

I actually think its the other way around. When someone goes for a HO I wait for them to start shooting then break downwards than loop back up. If they turn I can come up and over and inside. If they go vertical I will be under them so my loop will be lower than their loop allowing me to get into a guns position.

What you are describing is not impossible.  It could happen under specific conditions.  However, most of the time it will not happen the way you describe.  Here is why:

You wait until they fire and then make a move?  If their aim was good you will take a face full of led since you cannot react faster than bullets.  What if they open up up at d800 or less?

if they turn you will somehow come up and under and be inside them.  Sure it could happen but it will depend on speed, plane types and pilot skills.  So I don;t understand how you are 100% sure it will happen that way.

If they go vertical you will end up under them.  That is true but how can you be sure you will be at guns range or that you will have the e to avoid stalling first? 

I think you guys confuse lack of skill from the bad guy and maybe same luck on your part with the act of pulling the trigger.   Think of it this way.  Had he not pulled the trigger would you still have won the engagement?  If the answer is yes then what you are saying is that you will win every head on merge with a simple move of pushing your nose down  (is it really that easy? lol).  However, it is also a head on merge for the other guy so why is he not going to win?  Do you think you gained an advantage only because he send some led your way?

[nrshida]

Yeah like Dedalos said about skill being a variable. The Bf109K-4 stick in Arlo's pictures couldn't hit a barn door if he was in said barn with the doors locked. That was a gift of a shot to a HOer, you are asking for it merging like that.

"Give your opponent a guns solution - get shot" - said someone wise hereabouts once.

[olds442]

What you are describing is not impossible.  It could happen under specific conditions.  However, most of the time it will not happen the way you describe.  Here is why:

You wait until they fire and then make a move?  If their aim was good you will take a face full of led since you cannot react faster than bullets.  What if they open up up at d800 or less?

if they turn you will somehow come up and under and be inside them.  Sure it could happen but it will depend on speed, plane types and pilot skills.  So I don;t understand how you are 100% sure it will happen that way.

If they go vertical you will end up under them.  That is true but how can you be sure you will be at guns range or that you will have the e to avoid stalling first? 

I think you guys confuse lack of skill from the bad guy and maybe same luck on your part with the act of pulling the trigger.   Think of it this way.  Had he not pulled the trigger would you still have won the engagement?  If the answer is yes then what you are saying is that you will win every head on merge with a simple move of pushing your nose down  (is it really that easy? lol).  However, it is also a head on merge for the other guy so why is he not going to win?  Do you think you gained an advantage only because he send some led your way?

First off its rather easy to figure out when someone will start firing. Meaning i don't start to change path until around 800 out. I don't wait for them to start firing, I wait for them to get in range TO fire is what I mean. And if they turn and im not slow and can pull a lot of G's in a high loop and break into them from ONTOP not from the bottom.

[Arlo]

1. Players that HO all the time don't know diddly, right?

2. Players that know diddly don't HO all the time, just when they're in the mood, right?

3. Players who aren't concerned about HO attacks are as bad or worse than the HOers, right?

The 109 driver sees the Hurri and drives in for the HO kill



The Hurri slips to the side and drops a bit













2nd attempt .... 1 minute later











3rd attempt .... 30 seconds later ... though not so much a HO this time, just another miss and run.









The game is flat out ruined now that so many HO. Wait .... HOs aren't new nor are the frequency.

Meh ... burn them anyway! 

[Vinkman]

funny thread full of lots of interesting stuff. 

I did want to say that I almost never get ho'd. Avoid a ho starts early, but I never fly straight at a bogy inside 1.5K.

I did learn when fighting <certain pilot WHO will remain nameless> in what I call MA duels, when I would attempt and merge, as one does in a duel, with head on pass, he would always ho me, Then brag about killing me. So I started breaking our of the merge to avoid the ho, but this was giving him a huge advanage in ACM as his first turn easily put him on my six o'clock. then he would beat me in his Spit8 and brag about that. I lost nearly every fight. Then frustrated by what I felt were his dishonerable tactics of hoing on the first merge. I decided to fight back and do the same. I killed him on successive ho's, and started forcing him to break first. Since my change in tactics (only when fighting <certain pilot WHO will remain nameless>) the record now stands at 11 to 2 in favor of...well...not <certain pilot WHO will remain nameless>.

It's relevant to this discussion because there is a dog fighters code of conduct that says if your looking for a fun, fair, good, dog fight you merge guns cold. Those that live by that code can get sucked into a head on merge, thinking they are engaging another who lives by the same code. It's a great dissapointment to find out the other pilot has no code and he took advantage of yours. Hence the ho whining. I've stopped whining about ho's a long time ago because I never assume any pilots flies by the code anymore unless I know who the pilot is. So I rarely line up for merge, and instead begin positioning my plane 3K out.

That said, I know not to look for a fair merge with 4 cannon brick that can't turn. Because to that plane, there is nothing fair about starting on equal terms against a plane that turns twice as good. I'f I'm in a 410 and you line up for head on merge in your Zeke....I have no choice but to Ho you. I can't survive any other scenario. Sorry.  And for all you Spit, N1ki, hurry, Zeke, Spit jocks out there that complain about getting ho'd by Fw-190s, T-bolts, B-25s, and other assorted Bricks-of-the-Air, you're really just trying to use the code to guilt someone into giving you an easy kill.

Head on merges are for equal planes with equal E states, flown by pilots who live by the code. Otherwise they should be avoided, because they end up being unfair to someone, and the only way to even the odds is firing on the merge.

Happy flying 

[Wiley]

It's been an interesting thread for me as well.  It's made me think about a couple things when it comes to dueling.  It occurred to me last night when I'm having an actual, according to Hoyle guns cold duel, I still use the same merge...  Might explain part of my suckage on the merge.

The other thing I've been thinking about is I rarely get hit on the way into another aircraft.  I also do alright after we're engaged most of the time.  What I'm thinking may be at play there is in the MA I very often am coming in on the guy with smash, often with alt as well.  That might explain why I have good results against the average rank and file guys that I'm fighting, because I have the E to play with that helps me overcome the angles advantage he gets from the HO.

Not quite sure what to make of it, but it's food for thought.  Now my game's gonna slip because I'm going to start overthinking... 

Wiley.

[dedalos]

funny thread full of lots of interesting stuff. 

I did want to say that I almost never get ho'd. Avoid a ho starts early, but I never fly straight at a bogy inside 1.5K.

I did learn when fighting <certain pilot WHO will remain nameless> in what I call MA duels, when I would attempt and merge, as one does in a duel, with head on pass, he would always ho me, Then brag about killing me. So I started breaking our of the merge to avoid the ho, but this was giving him a huge advanage in ACM as his first turn easily put him on my six o'clock. then he would beat me in his Spit8 and brag about that. I lost nearly every fight. Then frustrated by what I felt were his dishonerable tactics of hoing on the first merge. I decided to fight back and do the same. I killed him on successive ho's, and started forcing him to break first. Since my change in tactics (only when fighting <certain pilot WHO will remain nameless>) the record now stands at 11 to 2 in favor of...well...not <certain pilot WHO will remain nameless>.

It's relevant to this discussion because there is a dog fighters code of conduct that says if your looking for a fun, fair, good, dog fight you merge guns cold. Those that live by that code can get sucked into a head on merge, thinking they are engaging another who lives by the same code. It's a great dissapointment to find out the other pilot has no code and he took advantage of yours. Hence the ho whining. I've stopped whining about ho's a long time ago because I never assume any pilots flies by the code anymore unless I know who the pilot is. So I rarely line up for merge, and instead begin positioning my plane 3K out.

That said, I know not to look for a fair merge with 4 cannon brick that can't turn. Because to that plane, there is nothing fair about starting on equal terms against a plane that turns twice as good. I'f I'm in a 410 and you line up for head on merge in your Zeke....I have no choice but to Ho you. I can't survive any other scenario. Sorry.  And for all you Spit, N1ki, hurry, Zeke, Spit jocks out there that complain about getting ho'd by Fw-190s, T-bolts, B-25s, and other assorted Bricks-of-the-Air, you're really just trying to use the code to guilt someone into giving you an easy kill.

Head on merges are for equal planes with equal E states, flown by pilots who live by the code. Otherwise they should be avoided, because they end up being unfair to someone, and the only way to even the odds is firing on the merge.

Happy flying 

Not disagreeing with you, but I wanted to clarify a couple of things (Bold text).  There is no code of conduct nor do I look for a fair fight.  Most of the time I ll give my 6 up to make sure someone does not run.  The disappointment comes from the following.  People that are looking for a fight make the assumption ( and I do make that assumption ) that for someone to join this game and pay a monthly fee, they must be doing it because of their love of dog fighting other planes (or in the case of a GVer fighting other GVs).  There is a money investment and a big time investment we make looking for those few minutes of a good fight.  The problem I have with the HO shot is not because of a code of conduct or because it is unfair.  It is because I cannot understand why anyone would make the time and money investment in a game with "fighter" planes in order to avoid a fight.  That is what a HO shot at the merge is.  An attempt to kill someone without putting up a fight.  It is the dumbest thing you could try since you are running the risk of getting shot also.  So, when I invest 10 minutes of my life to get to a fight and the fight ends because someone decided to waste 10 minutes of his life to die or win without a fight it eventually gets to you.  If it happens 6 time in a row you just wasted one hour for nothing.  Even if you win it is a waste of time.

So, the whines are not due to a secret fighter code of conduct or looking for a fair fight etc.  It is the frustration of the time wasted, and the stupidity of that tactic.  Off line drone HOing is free so why pay for it?

[Vinkman]

 

Not disagreeing with you, but I wanted to clarify a couple of things (Bold text).  There is no code of conduct nor do I look for a fair fight.  Most of the time I ll give my 6 up to make sure someone does not run.  The disappointment comes from the following.  People that are looking for a fight make the assumption ( and I do make that assumption ) that for someone to join this game and pay a monthly fee, they must be doing it because of their love of dog fighting other planes (or in the case of a GVer fighting other GVs).  There is a money investment and a big time investment we make looking for those few minutes of a good fight.  The problem I have with the HO shot is not because of a code of conduct or because it is unfair.  It is because I cannot understand why anyone would make the time and money investment in a game with "fighter" planes in order to avoid a fight.  That is what a HO shot at the merge is.  An attempt to kill someone without putting up a fight.  It is the dumbest thing you could try since you are running the risk of getting shot also.  So, when I invest 10 minutes of my life to get to a fight and the fight ends because someone decided to waste 10 minutes of his life to die or win without a fight it eventually gets to you.  If it happens 6 time in a row you just wasted one hour for nothing.  Even if you win it is a waste of time.

So, the whines are not due to a secret fighter code of conduct or looking for a fair fight etc.  It is the frustration of the time wasted, and the stupidity of that tactic.  Off line drone HOing is free so why pay for it?

Yes I completely agree. But I gave up trying to convince folks to ..."play my way". 

[Grayclif]

this is blatant trolling. htc takes cheat accusations very seriously. 2 week ban for violations of rules 1-867. 

[JohnnyHeelz]

YES IT IS Sally.    In 14 pages of this thread the word cheat only appears four times, two of which are in THIS reply.  The other person, used it jokingly. 

this is blatant trolling. htc takes cheat accusations very seriously. 2 week ban for violations of rules 1-867. 

[dedalos]

Yes I completely agree. But I gave up trying to convince folks to ..."play my way". 

I just don;t want to play their way 

[Changeup]

YES IT IS Sally.    In 14 pages of this thread the word cheat only appears four times, two of which are in THIS reply.  The other person, used it jokingly.  

Johnny, what's your name in-game?