Flak 88 revisited

[shotgunneeley]

Here is an excerpt from the book A Higher Call by Adam Makos.

It was 11:05 A.M. Charlie Knew that if he could see Germany, then German radar and ground spotters could also see him. At that very moment enemy soldiers were calculating the bombers' speed, course, and altitude and feeding it to flak gunners ahead. Even up so high, Charlie could feel their weighty stare.

(pg. 176)

Through his windscreen, Charlie saw an oily black puff of smoke. Then another. Then another. Quickly the sky frothed with a man-made storm. Far below, the 250 flak gunners had begun pulling the lanyards of their 88mm cannons while their comrades cranked handles that traverse the guns, tracking the bombers between ear splitting blasts. Every three seconds the cannons kicked, sending twenty-pound shell skyward. Each gun and it's crew operated in a four-cannon battery that fired together to create a "kill zone" – each shell fused to explode at a slightly different altitude in order to embrace a target.

(pg. 177)

Based on this as well as prior references i've come across, I wish we would have four flak 88s grouped together in a battery for high-alt AA defense. These can be located at fields, but I wish they were outside the field on the perimeters - maybe in a wood line. They could also be at the strats and HQ to work alongside AI fire. I wish there was some kind of sight that ranged and led the target - perhaps a reversed version of the manual bomb sight.

The way I see it for game play, the gunner would place the crosshairs on the target. While holding the "u" key for at least 2 seconds, the gunner would have to track the target for the sight to calculate the target range, course, speed and alt. when the gunner presses the "y" key, the sight will compensate the crosshairs for the guns aiming point. Accuracy will be a factor of the target's movement and gunner's calibration. 

And since I've got my head stuck in this book, I would really like to see the B-17F!

[Karnak]

I also suggested changing them to a battery of four for this reason.

I think this would be a nice change.

[USRanger]

I already have built "flak fields" with just what you are asking, but they contain a couple auto acks for close in defense of the field also.  I use them in AvA terrains periodically.  I'll post a pick tonight to see what you think.

[Tinkles]

Here is an excerpt from the book A Higher Call by Adam Makos.
 (pg. 176)
 (pg. 177)

Based on this as well as prior references i've come across, I wish we would have four flak 88s grouped together in a battery for high-alt AA defense. These can be located at fields, but I wish they were outside the field on the perimeters - maybe in a wood line. They could also be at the strats and HQ to work alongside AI fire. I wish there was some kind of sight that ranged and led the target - perhaps a reversed version of the manual bomb sight.

The way I see it for game play, the gunner would place the crosshairs on the target. While holding the "u" key for at least 2 seconds, the gunner would have to track the target for the sight to calculate the target range, course, speed and alt. when the gunner presses the "y" key, the sight will compensate the crosshairs for the guns aiming point. Accuracy will be a factor of the target's movement and gunner's calibration. 

And since I've got my head stuck in this book, I would really like to see the B-17F!

Instead of the bomber gunsight system you described.  Personally, (My opinion) I would like to see it like the 88mm is now, but instead of 1 puff you have 4.  For those who are screaming now "88s are Overpowered NO NO NO". 88mms are actually not easy to shoot, and quite easy to dodge, if you die frequently by 88s your SA has failed you.  Also, I would like to see a potiential perk system with this. If we get a perk system with it, then we can 'die' in the guns if a plane, or tank or whatever kills a mannable gun while a player is inside. But shouldn't get a kill for it, after all, it's just a flak gun.

If these quad 88s are added to fields, then perhaps we could have access to the ones on the strats?  THOSE I would not mind seeing the 'bomber gunsight system' on. Because bombers typically hide on their perch of 25k+ and those are hard to aim at.

Just my opinion.

Tinkles

<<S>>

 

[Volron]

Being able to control a battery of 88's...   I know there are those who cry about the 88's.  Well, if you weren't so damn predictable, you wouldn't get greased.  When I'm shooting at a unpredictable target, it's luck when I tag you.  However, if it's a predictable target or "sleepy" target, I take quite a bit of delight in watching that puff bring you down.


A thing we've all noticed; The puffy over strats is horridly light considering the target and will only shoot at one plane/set.  I'd like to see at least double of what I'm flying through.   Also, is the puffy "zoned" at the Capital?  Because it really doesn't look like it (if it is) when multiple sets are flying over it.  Generally what I see is one set taking all the puffy while the others just carry about as if they didn't exist.

[Tank-Ace]

The auto puffy has always been one of the games biggest flaws.

If we get an overhaul of the FlaK system, number one thing I want to see happen is have an actual shell fired, instead of the bursts just spawning around you. As it is now, evasive maneuvers are useless, because there is no  aiming, and no shell to dodge.

[shotgunneeley]

We could still have the AI puffy ack as a token defense if players aren't around to operate them. The flak guns on the CV would be something else to think about, too. In a bomber, I'd feel less grief being blown away by a fellow player than the random coding of an AI puffy.

In the flak 88, it takes something like 15 seconds for a shell to reach 20k. If a target changes course after the shell is fired, there is no redirecting it. It would take up to 18 seconds (including 3 second reload time) for another shell to reach the new target area. Our AI puffy ack seems to magically predict this and we get flak following airplanes continuously despite evasive action.

[jeffdn]

We could still have the AI puffy ack as a token defense if players aren't around to operate them. The flak guns on the CV would be something else to think about, too. In a bomber, I'd feel less grief being blown away by a fellow player than the random coding of an AI puffy.

In the flak 88, it takes something like 15 seconds for a shell to reach 20k. If a target changes course after the shell is fired, there is no redirecting it. It would take up to 18 seconds (including 3 second reload time) for another shell to reach the new target area. Our AI puffy ack seems to magically predict this and we get flak following airplanes continuously despite evasive action.

Yes, this is hugely frustrating. There have been several times where I'm flying high up in a Ta-152, over 30,000 feet, going more than 400 mph, and weaving, yet still the pings are getting me, and I've even been shot down a couple times. One high-speed high-altitude fighter that is performing evasive maneuvers would be pretty much impossible to hit.

[Vinkman]

I like the idea of gun batteries (4) +1
Not sure about the calibration, auto aimer. Could be too accurate especially with 4 guns.  -1

[R 105]

 If the 88mm flak gun was no better than what we have in the game I can see why the allies bombed Germany into the dust. They did work in groups of 4 to 6 guns and all 88MM flak guns came with a ground target sight as part of it's table of organization and equipment to engage tanks and other targets in the direct fire role. Also the 88 we have in the game turn about a third of how fast they did turn. I have seen a towed German 88mm flak gun at a reenactment and it turned very fast. I also have sat on and turned a US made 3 inch 50 antiaircraft gun used by the Coast Guard and it turned way faster than our 88s so I am not just talking what I read in a book I got first hand experience.

[HighTone]

Lets try getting people into airplanes and out of field guns.

-1

[jeffdn]

Lets try getting people into airplanes and out of field guns.

-1

Agreed. In the Operation Husky "this day in WWII" earlier this month, it was German pilots against... American ship gunners? That's not fun, and it makes the scenario pointless. It's even worse in the MA, in my humble opinion.

[shotgunneeley]

Lets try getting people into airplanes and out of field guns.

-1

It's just point defense. I like to jump into the AA when I have an enemy coming in and I know I don't have time to intercept it with a plane before it reaches the target. Sure, i would much rather fly a plane than to take on an enemy but when they're sitting on top of the field I'm going jump into AA gun. Its not that I'm scared of fighting in a plane or am trying to destroy the enemy at no risk to myself - I just like to gun sometimes and would like to see that aspect of the game enhanced.

I like the idea of gun batteries (4) +1
Not sure about the calibration, auto aimer. Could be too accurate especially with 4 guns.  -1

HTC can make it as accurate or as inaccurate as they like for gameplay reasons. All I know is that we need some kind of sight targeting system to get those 25-30k buff raids. As it stands now we don't even know the angle or bearing of the gun to perform any trig calculations on our own initiative. My record in the flak 88 is D6.4k yards and that lanc was only at an altitude of 11,000 feet. Best guess like we have now just doesn't cut it for the higher stuff.

[lyric1]

If the 88mm flak gun was no better than what we have in the game I can see why the allies bombed Germany into the dust. They did work in groups of 4 to 6 guns and all 88MM flak guns came with a ground target sight as part of it's table of organization and equipment to engage tanks and other targets in the direct fire role. Also the 88 we have in the game turn about a third of how fast they did turn. I have seen a towed German 88mm flak gun at a reenactment and it turned very fast. I also have sat on and turned a US made 3 inch 50 antiaircraft gun used by the Coast Guard and it turned way faster than our 88s so I am not just talking what I read in a book I got first hand experience.

There is two speeds for rotation of the 88's in real life.  
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/88mm-antiaircraft-gun/88mm-antiaircraft-gun-introduction.html
"Time to traverse 360 degrees"
     High gear  33.90 sec
     Low gear   69.79 sec
Guess what gear we have.

Plus the ground target sight had a 4X zoom. OMG It had a real ground sight as well.
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/88mm-antiaircraft-gun/sighting-equipment-german-artillery-88mm.html

Every thing you need to know about the 88MM in the link below.

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/88mm-antiaircraft-gun/index.html

[Mister Fork]

I met a AAA gunner who worked in London back in 1997 (my ex-wife's dad) and he was AAA gunner during WWII.  Funny thing was that he was only 15 when he started gunning in 1939 as a lot of the AAA crews were younger soldiers with most of their support staff for the AAA batteries were just teenager volunteers (i.e. cadets) who were ammo, supply and message runners. We talked for over 3 hours on stories he had first as a runner in London, then ammo, then gunner, then a battery commander during the 6 years he worked in AAA all over Europe.

He talked about the quad-88 setup in the war where each had a device where they could triangulate with just three guns to determine the altitude of the bomber/fighter and then the skill was determining speed and direction.  He also said it was almost impossible to hit a dive bomber (i.e. Stuka) as the rapid altitude change made triangulation near impossible and then the bomber would extend their dive out and climbing to the left or right which made re-acquiring them near impossible so they would just set up a flack layers near the target.  

Then throw in wind, weather, rain, fog, clouds, sleet, hail, snow, ice, freezing rain, rust, humidity, fatigue, sickness, mental strain, stress, crew stress (not everyone got along), weapon issues like jamming or ammo-misfires, hands/fingers getting chopped off or chewed, shrapnel from dropped enemy iron bombs, strafing from fighters, training issues from the 'pinkies' replacement crews (I heard a few stories how a new lad would end up losing a hand or end up with a hot empty shell case down the back of their coat - that's the life of a AAA crew.  In other words, it was a pretty hard and crappy job - you were always outside in the elements and you didn't have the easiest position as it was a hard job to do when you did have to engage an enemy fighter or bomber formation and  were sitting ducks to what every facility or building you were on top of.

So, when you sit behind your screen in the comfort of your living/computer room or with your low-geared AAA 88, give yourself a reality check when you think it's turning too slow... the version HTC has modelled is just fine...