Author Topic: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open  (Read 15304 times)

Offline Brooke

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #75 on: July 31, 2013, 01:39:07 AM »
BoB is better with He 111's in it.  In my opinion, having some Ju 88's, too, though is also good.  

There were Ju 88's in the battle.  Yes, they might have been lesser versions than the A-4 (although some A-4's supposedly flew near the end of the battle, and I've read that the A-1 was faster than the A-4, although not well referenced).  We would use the correct versions (A-1 and A-5) if we had them, but we have the A-4, so it is what we use.

LW:RAF, bombers:RAF, Ju88's:RAF, and He111:RAF are all lower than historical.  (We have to design for playability and expected turnout.)  If so, think of higher Ju88:He111 than historical as a slight balance.  Please don't focus on Ju88:He111 only while ignoring LW:RAF, bombers:RAF, Ju88s:RAF, and He111:RAF.

Past BoB's had only Ju 88's, yet were highly rated by players and balanced (with two out of three of them being nearly draws).  We have less than half as many Ju 88's as in the past runnings.

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #76 on: July 31, 2013, 01:46:37 AM »
So abrasive Sir CM. I flew in 08 and the one before. Ju 88s hurt, not ruined, the event.

Sukov brings a good question to mind. May we have an answer?

Certainly.  You'll find it under the rules section.

http://www.ahevents.org/events/scenarios/previous-scenarios/49-european-theatre/991-battle-of-britain-2013.html
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #77 on: July 31, 2013, 01:55:48 AM »
I have had quite enough of trying to catch them, let alone shoot them down, with a Spit I

I flew Hurri I's in frame 4 of BoB2004 and killed two Ju 88's and put rounds into at least a couple others in four engagements.  They are fast, but not uncatchable.  A little alt on them, and you can catch them.  Also, regardless of whether they are difficult to catch or not, they were in the real battle.

My four bomber engagements:








Offline Brooke

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #78 on: July 31, 2013, 02:01:31 AM »
SO is this a two life event or is it 1 life then maybe a second with a rescue?

What happens if your pilot is killed? Game over?

For LW, it is 2 life (one in primary, one in secondary).  Secondary for fighter pilots is a Stuka.  Secondary for bomber pilots is their bombers again.

For RAF:
•10) Downed (lost) RAF pilots will able to take up ground gunner and observation positions.
•11) Rescued RAF pilots can re up after T = 60 minutes (see rescue below).

So, they potentially have 1, 2, or more lives depending on whether or not they are rescued (could get rescued more than once).

Offline Krusty

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #79 on: July 31, 2013, 02:44:28 AM »
LOL, chill Guppy, chill!

Did you not see the laughing emoticon?  :rofl <-- this = "I make teh joke" -- and if you want to get into the debate about the Ju88s in BOB we can start another thread. You paint them in too kind a light.


There is a history of dismissing any comments that don't fit the existing template, because it's not going to be changed after the rules have been finalized, rigth? And CMs are unwilling to discuss the scenario after the fact, and never tell you ahead of time what the next scenario is before all is set in stone....  so there is no "right" time to discuss any issues with balance, historic accuracy, and so forth about scenarios. There is no discourse, no outlet for rational discussion. I have brought this up before on a number of scenario forums and it's rather frustrating.

Offline kilo2

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #80 on: July 31, 2013, 05:50:13 AM »
Certainly.  You'll find it under the rules section.

http://www.ahevents.org/events/scenarios/previous-scenarios/49-european-theatre/991-battle-of-britain-2013.html

Thanks. :rolleyes:

This is not normal scenario rules so I wanted it clarified. The rules are long, intricate, and in some cases poorly written.


Thank you Brooke for answering the question.

That does not sound good. I think there is going to be a lot of one and done.


There is a history of dismissing any comments that don't fit the existing template, because it's not going to be changed after the rules have been finalized, rigth? And CMs are unwilling to discuss the scenario after the fact, and never tell you ahead of time what the next scenario is before all is set in stone....  so there is no "right" time to discuss any issues with balance, historic accuracy, and so forth about scenarios. There is no discourse, no outlet for rational discussion. I have brought this up before on a number of scenario forums and it's rather frustrating.

Just be quiet and accept it Krusty that is the approved method.
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Offline perdue3

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #81 on: July 31, 2013, 05:53:44 AM »
LOL, chill Guppy, chill!

Did you not see the laughing emoticon?  :rofl <-- this = "I make teh joke" -- and if you want to get into the debate about the Ju88s in BOB we can start another thread. You paint them in too kind a light.


There is a history of dismissing any comments that don't fit the existing template, because it's not going to be changed after the rules have been finalized, rigth? And CMs are unwilling to discuss the scenario after the fact, and never tell you ahead of time what the next scenario is before all is set in stone....  so there is no "right" time to discuss any issues with balance, historic accuracy, and so forth about scenarios. There is no discourse, no outlet for rational discussion. I have brought this up before on a number of scenario forums and it's rather frustrating.

Did you actually believe the CM team would give you any count of credibility after saying this? I can only imagine what their response will be to this. Maybe, "The CM Team discusses and we know what is best for the community." Or, "Sign up to be a Scenario CM Member if you'd like your opinion to be valid." Or, "Why can't you just shutup and have fun. That's what this is all about, FUN."

I am on your side Krusty. Many of us have said this before and, like always, it is brushed under the rug.


Back on topic...is it out of the question to ask why the normal 2-life system was abandoned for this setup? Is it the Scenario CM Team's belief that forcing 109's to fly Ju 87's in their second life will help the event? Also, does the Scenario CM Team believe that having a chance at a 1-sortie Scenario as an RAF pilot will improve the event? Please, I am being genuine and seeking thoughts. I am not putting words in your mouth nor am I criticizing. Simply trying to grasp why the radical changes were made knowing the obvious problems with scenarios recently.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 06:16:23 AM by perdue3 »
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Offline BFOOT1

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #82 on: July 31, 2013, 08:53:11 AM »
My understanding from those who have flown this event in the past, each has been very competitive.  No one has said that the 88s ruined the scenario.  That being said, it's less 88s this time so I can't quite see how it's an issue.

The RAF rose to the occasion back then.  They didn't concede before a shot was fired.

Remember the guys you are representing and what they accomplished.  Sadly there are very few of "the Few" left.

While I'm flying a 109E in this one, understand the guys below are my heroes and have been my heroes for far longer than any computer game.  Enjoy the chance to put yourself in their spot, as much as a computer game will allow.

(Image removed from quote.)
Well said Guppy, I agree with you abiut The Few. They're my heroes too. I flew the 04 Scenario as a walkon 110 pilot. I was 10 in 04 and had no earthly idea what I was doing at all. But after doing research over the years I know a lot about the Summer of 1940 and I can't wait for September!
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Offline ROC

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #83 on: July 31, 2013, 10:22:47 AM »
Opps, my bad, lot of things to read.  There are no Cannons on the HE111.  I overlooked a confirmation in our design review.

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Offline ROC

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #84 on: July 31, 2013, 10:37:23 AM »
Quote
The rules are long, intricate, and in some cases poorly written.

They have to be long, too many legal beagles want to fly by spreadsheet instead of in the air.  And poorly written can be subjective.  If some people can figure it out, others can't, then it's simply a matter of clarification.  Methinks you protest too much.

Quote
Simply trying to grasp why the radical changes were made knowing the obvious problems with scenarios recently.
  Much of what you say would be far more credible if you would add "imho" because you spout facts that are simply your opinion, and you do not speak for everyone.  You are also very unclear about what exactly many people think is also a very obvious problem with scenarios, in their opinions ;)
Yet another perfectly good discussion, perfectly happy thread, perfectly enjoyable event that is now turning into yet one more pissing contest.  And who is the usual suspects?  Same old same old.

FSO, Snapshots, AvA, SEC, Multiple variations of the main arena.  My goodness there are so many other things you can do if you are not happy with this event.  Go find something you enjoy, lifes too short. 

But again, as I've said in the past, there is such a limited time for you all to figure out what you have to work with and how to win this thing, if you want to spend your time bickering and complaining while the other side is gleefully putting plans together to capitalize on your distractions, so be it. I'm not going to stop you.  I do have every intention of allowing either side to waste precious time and screw up their victory.  At some point, your COs are going to tire of if and ask me to deal with it.  I will.

Have fun with that  :aok

ROC
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Offline leitwolf

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #85 on: July 31, 2013, 12:49:41 PM »
Hello, my name is Leitwolf and i am a confessing scenarioholic.

As far as I know I have been in all BoB Scenarios in AH, including the FSO version that predated it (that is so ancient history.. back then FSO had a different name.. was it called ToD?) :old:

I shall be flying the mighty Hurriba^H^Hcane this time around and I do not fear the Ju88 at all. The 88's "overpoweredness" is an utter non-factor.
If there is a problem with the planes it lies with the Me110 (which in AH is much better than history would suggest).

However, neither issue can change the fact that this is one of the most fun(!), well balanced, and close run things this format has to offer, and I for one shall welcome our german overlor, no, wait, "offer them a drink in the channel".  :cheers:

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Offline Brooke

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #86 on: July 31, 2013, 01:22:43 PM »
Back on topic...is it out of the question to ask why the normal 2-life system was abandoned for this setup?   Is it the Scenario CM Team's belief that forcing 109's to fly Ju 87's in their second life will help the event? Also, does the Scenario CM Team believe that having a chance at a 1-sortie Scenario as an RAF pilot will improve the event? Please, I am being genuine and seeking thoughts. I am not putting words in your mouth nor am I criticizing. Simply trying to grasp why the radical changes were made knowing the obvious problems with scenarios recently.

The number of lives varies from scenario to scenario.  For example, Rangoon, '42, Coral Sea, and Rangoon 2008 were one-life events.  Battle of Britain 2004, BoB 2006, and BoB 2008 were as it is for BoB 2013.  Stalin's Fourth was based on a number of aircraft available, with fewer pilots showing up meaning more lives for those who did show up.  Operation Downfall had unlimited lives.  Der Grosse Schlag, Battle Over Germany, and DGS II had 1 life for bomber pilots.  How these things (and the other multitude of design parameters) are picked is based on the designer's idea of what will be the best mix of fun, realism, balance, action, etc.

There are some people who prefer single-life events because they feel it adds a lot more realism to the feel of the event.  Some folks prefer 2 lives.  Some folks prefer unlimited lives.  The Battle of Britain scenario design was first made in 2004 by Tilt.  This one is geared toward the more-realistic side of number of lives (i.e., 1 if you die your plane as an RAF pilot).  However, since there were cases of RAF pilots bailing out and getting back to base, that element is brought in.  So, that gives on average for the RAF more than 1 life.  On the LW side, you can't do that, as the rescue was less likely and would take far longer to get a pilot back to base; and you have another problem to solve.  There were lots of Ju 87's in the battle, but you aren't going to get people to sign up to fly only Ju 87's.  So, instead of 1 life for LW fighter pilots, you give them a life in Ju 87's, too, and will solve both those aspects.

It was run in 2004, 2006, 2008, and now 2013.  The previous 3 runnings were popular (as judged by several rounds of polling of the players) and well balanced (as judged by the first two being nearly draws).  If I see a past design that was popular and balanced, my feeling is that changes should be small except for replacing any substitute planes with the more-correct planes that have been added to AH.  I'm not the only scenario CM, so it's not my call, but that's what I'd recommend.

So, in short, BoB is this way because that's how it was originally designed based on designer's feeling of what is best (and not every player will agree); it worked well in the past; and we didn't change much.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 01:53:52 PM by Brooke »

Offline Brooke

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #87 on: July 31, 2013, 01:24:51 PM »
Hello, my name is Leitwolf and i am a confessing scenarioholic.

I like everything that you said -- except you should be flying Luftwaffe!  ;)

Offline Vudu15

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #88 on: July 31, 2013, 03:15:03 PM »
I like everything that you said -- except you should be flying Luftwaffe!  ;)


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Offline perdue3

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Re: Battle Of Britain 2013 Registration Now Open
« Reply #89 on: July 31, 2013, 03:25:59 PM »
The only time Jagdfliegerfürher is mentioned is the Base Relocation rule here:

9) Between-Frame Relocation. Gruppen base fields can be moved around (between Frames, after Frame 1) within Jafu but not across Jafu. A staffel can be moved to a new base, but that new base must be in the same Jafu and must be one of the bases listed in the original list of active bases for frame 1. The staffel can be moved to a small airfield only if that small airfield will then have two or fewer staffel based there and to a large airfield only if that large airfield will then have four or fewer staffel based there. HE111/Ju 88 staffel can only be moved to airfields that have those planes enabled.


Trying my best to not say something about the run-on sentence. DOH! Where are the Jafü? It hasn't been mentioned anywhere else in the writeup except here. So, we can move inside our own Jafü but not to another one. Easy enough, where the hell are they?
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