Author Topic: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch  (Read 3951 times)

Offline artik

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2013, 01:32:12 PM »
The BVR engagement is the way of air warfare these days.

Missile and Radar Tech will now outclass aircraft design as the no 1 factor for winning battles.

The problem with BVR is that in reality it can't always be managed - and it isn't about RoE only.

Probably the classic case would be the following, take a look on the map:

   http://goo.gl/maps/yZHtV

The distance between Damascus and Haifa is around 150km, it takes about 10 minutes of subsonic flight and much less of supersonic and even much less when the forces moving one to each others direction. It is very short distance.

So even if you start BVR you are ending very-very fast WVR fight.

For example, a story of a first F-15 kill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-FMLNlMEoo#t=32m25s

It started in BVR ended with 1 AIM-7 kill, 1 Python kill and 1 Gun kill.

Yes, AIM-7 is not that good weapon and today it would be more BVR kills and less WVR kills but on the other hand the defense is better so there is no guarantee that against modern ECM the AMRAAM would behave much better.

So BVR is very good on paper and even works in some cases. But it is not the ONLY engagement we would see if not the minority of them.
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline Gman

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2013, 09:49:41 PM »
I think the next generation of fighters might be using weapons moving at the speed of light, so all this about weapon engagement zones, no escape zones, counter measures, etc won't mean anything when high tech drones or fighters are using directed energy weapons.  For the next ten or twenty years missiles  will still be important, and you're right IMO, the ability to out maneuver, spoof, decoy, or escape a modern AAM even IF it gets detected are closing in on zero percent.

The missiles are too fast, too maneuverable, and too smart now for any of the old Vietnam and Cold War era maneuvers to have much if any effect IMO.

Even some of the SAM's are now moving at insane speeds, well over Mach 4 or 5 - can you dodge bullets like in the Matrix, because these things are going even faster than that.

Eagl or Mace will probably stop by this thread and have some things to say.

Offline titanic3

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2013, 10:25:56 PM »
yeah, just look back, cut throttle to let it get close and then do a barrel roll. Dont forget to shoot it as it is flying by  :rofl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=2uh4yMAx2UA

F16 dodging 6 SAMs. It was 1991, hence my question. Granted, SAMs are heavier but my question isn't as ridiculous as you make it out to be.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline titanic3

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2013, 10:31:04 PM »


DAY THREE

The morning package had turned around at the border for two main reasons: no Wild Weasels, and poor weather. The target had been the Al Taji Rocket Production Facility located in the north of Baghdad. The package did, however, drop their bombs on the alternate target of Salman North airfield, located in central Iraq.

Meanwhile, the afternoon group had shown up for mission planning and discovered that their target had been changed from the nuclear research facility located south of Baghdad to three targets located in the heart of the city itself: the Air Force Headquarters, the Republican Guard Headquarters, and the oil refinery. The 614th TFS would fly the first daylight F-16 raid on downtown Baghdad.

As the 16-ship F-16 package arrived at the air refueling track, it was discovered that there were not enough tankers for the entire group. Consequently, the last four-ship, call-sign Stroke 1-4, was engaged in a radio conversation with any Forward Air Controller (FAC) they could raise on the radio in order to be used as opportunity air strikers in Kuwait. As the four-ship was about to deport on an alternative mission, a pop-up tanker arrived which allowed everyone to proceed as planned.

As the package proceeded to the Iraqi border the weather become steadily worse until everyone was in the weather, unable to climb out into the clear. As planes got out of position, the package finally broke out into the clear just past the Iraqi border. At this time, a large calibre AAA gun began firing on the aircraft. The AAA consisted of extremely large airbursts that looked like big black rain clouds. The AAA, coupled with the confusion of sorting out the package formation, resulted in 25% of the package being sent home at that time. Meanwhile the package, now a 12-ship, pressed on to Baghdad.

As the flight approached the Baghdad IP, AAA began firing at tremendous rates. Most of the AAA was at 10-12,000ft (3,658m), but there were some very heavy, large calibre explosions up to 27,000ft (8,230m). Low altitude AAA became so thick it appeared to be an undercast. At this time, the 388th TFW F-16’s were hitting the Nuclear Research Centre outside of the city, and the Weasels had fired off all their HARMs in support of initial parts of the strike and warnings to the 614th F-16’s going further into downtown went unheard. The F-15’s also provided air cover and departed with the first part of the strike group. Again, a warning that went unheard. Without knowing it 614th TFS F-16’s were all pretty much alone in downtown Baghdad with no air cover and no electronic support assets.

A low overcast deck covered the northern portion of the city which extended south to the point where the AF Headquarters and the Republican Guard Headquarters were mostly obscured, and the package commander, Maj. John Nips Nichols, called a weather abort for those two targets. The southern portion of the city was clear, and the oil refinery was clearly visible to Crud and Stroke flights. As they approached the action point to roll in on the refinery, an SA-2 launch warning was received. The fighters turned to honour the threat missile launch warning, and some SAMs were seen in the air, but they were not an immediate threat. The remaining F-16’s each pinpoint bombed separate refectory towers on the site, and set the refinery ablaze. The destruction was so complete that the flames from the refinery were seen on Cable News Network (CNN) film for the next two weeks.

As the initial SA-2 launch warning faded however, Maj. ET Tullia, Stroke 3, received additional SA-2 and SA-3 acquisition warnings that went unheeded as he rolled in on the towers. The high angle diving delivery, combined with the on-board ECM pod delayed a full SAM missile system acquisition until he pulled off the target and turned south. As the missiles closed, ET's tape reveals the screams of the radar warning receiver into his headset of a missile launch. The missiles overshot and harmlessly detonated above his aircraft, and he turned back to the egress heading.

Multiple SAMs were launched at the package, some ballistic and unguided and some tracking with a full system lock-on. In spite of this, some members of the package refused to jettison their bombs until clear of the city to avoid possible damage to civilian non-combatants. One of the missiles guided toward Clap 4, piloted by Capt. Mike Cujo Roberts. A missile break warning sounded over the radio and Cujo saw the missile as it guided towards him. It passes behind his aircraft and detonates, and Cujo believes he is safe until his aircraft begins to pitch over and he loses control. As the jet approaches negative 1'g', Cujo ejected over downtown Baghdad. No one observed an ejection, nor saw a 'chute.

Meanwhile, ET became separated from the rest of the package because of his missile defensive break turns. As he defeats the missiles coming off the target, additional missiles are fired, this time, from either side of the rear quadrants of his aircraft. Training for SAM launches up to this point had been more or less book learning, recommending a pull to an orthogonal flight path 4 seconds prior to missile impact to overshoot the missile and create sufficient miss distance to negate the effects of the detonating warhead. Well, it works. The hard part though, is to see the missile early enough to make all the mental calculations.

The energy required to execute these missile break turns forced Maj. Tullia's jet to descend to 10,000ft (3,050ml, which put him in the heart of the AAA envelope. The only answer in this case was to select afterburner in order to increase airspeed and climb. However, being extremely low on fuel, and 700 nautical miles from home, afterburner must be used very judiciously. Before sufficient airspeed is increased, however, ET is faced with another multiple missile launch. In this case two separate SA-6 missile sites launch at his jet while he is climbing out of the AAA envelope. By continuing to unload his aircraft, ET watches the missiles as they close on his aircraft. The unloading and accelerating causes his aircraft to change its flight path, and a change in the missile flight path can be observed as well. As the timed break turns are accomplished, one missile flies so close that ET can hear the roar of the rocket as it passes where, just a fraction of a second earlier, the right wing was. Two missiles are launched towards him from the front of his aircraft and can be easily seen on his HUD film. Finally, as he reaches the outskirts of the city an optically guided missile of unknown type is fired. There is no radar warning of the launch, but the track of the missile can easily be observed to be guiding towards his aircraft. A defensive turn overshoots the missile, and Maj. Tullia proceeds on his way, now searching for the rest of his Flight.

Unknown to Maj Tullia, Tico was hit by an SA·3. He had an uncorrelated missile launch on his radar warning receiver (RWR), and as he turned, he visually acquired the missile guiding on his aircraft from below. He timed his missile break turn, the missile overshot his aircraft and detonated behind him. Unfortunately, the miss distance was not sufficient to guarantee the safety of his aircraft, and Tico observed large, peeled-back holes on the surface of the jet with fuel, oil, and hydraulic fluid forming a smoke trail behind him.

While Tico was egressing, all the warning lights in his cockpit had illuminated, and he had no indication of airspeed, heading, or altitude. Fortunately, Capt. Bruce Crutch Cox was nearby, and the two of them formed a Flight as they headed south. As the two were egressing, Crutch received some very unusual radar warning indications. About that time the AWACS called bandits airborne and heading south out of Baghdad. The bandits in this case were MiG-29 Fulcrum fighters. Crutch pitched back to look at the source of the threat warning with his radar and saw that he was flying line abreast with one of the MiGs. As he turned into the MiG and locked onto it with his radar, it turned and ran. Since Crutch didn't have the fuel to chase him, he turned his attention back to helping Tico.

Shortly after, Tico's jet quit flying. He was forced to eject over 150 miles (240km) into Iraq. As he ejected and was descending in his parachute, he extracted his emergency radio and talked to the Flight. A large number of enemy personnel on the ground were observing his descent and they were trying to shoot at him as he was descending. He asked for assistance, but the fuel situation prohibited anyone from orbiting. Once on the ground there was no chance of evading. Tico was captured by nomadic, Bedouin tribesmen of Iraq.

After talking to Tico on the radio, the Flight passed the information on his location to the orbiting AWACS in order to begin a Search-and-Rescue (SAR). The rest of the flight home was a quiet one as everyone thought of two friends left back in Iraq.

It was a long night. It was most people's first introduction to losing friends in combat. As the night wore on, the word finally arrived, there was no contact with Tico. The largest SAR effort to date had been under way. C-130’s and F-15E Strike Eagles orbited, circling over Tico's last known position, trying to raise him on the radio. Little did anyone know that Tico was sitting in the Bedouin chief's tent listening to the C-130 fly overhead, trying to devise a way to talk on the radio. No one would hear from Tico or Cujo again until they were seen on CNN three days later.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline Gman

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2013, 11:36:04 PM »
As stated, that was Cold War era tech for the most part, like I said last post, the missiles today are a completely different animal, while aircraft performance hasn't change a whole lot in terms of a ratio to that of the missiles.

For example, back in Vietnam, according to pilot and author Mark Berent, F4 pilots would go out and troll for SA2's, in order to train other pilots in the back seat how to dodge them, observe them, etc etc.  They would literally go out and get shot at on purpose, so confident they could do, and I quote "a little maneuver that the small guide vanes on the missile wouldn't allow it to follow", and escape the warhead envelope.  I can provide several books and references talking about the same thing.

My point is, back then, the pilots were confident enough that if they SAW an older missile like the SA2 or what have you, they not only had ECM/Decoys, but the ability to outfly it's flight envelope.  In Gulf War 1, there is some great stuff about air to air missiles from our side, particularly the Aim 7 and Aim 9 missing like crazy, against Mig 25's and other dated Soviet aircraft.  One F15 pilot had several Sparrows and Sidewinders get decoyed by a single Mig 25, and in his words, he said he was certain he would have to try and gun him before he finally hit him with one.  So, even NATO weapons weren't as lethal twenty years ago.

Now however, with the Amraam, Aim9x, Python, AA11/Rwhatever, and some of the other even newer missile, the tech and speed is just too great now to be able to use maneuvers to escape.  I'm not saying that maneuvering to avoid certain radar systems by beaming them etc isn't something that is completely gone, or that at certain ranges break turns are useless - it's just that the time/distance equation is far less forgiving now that it was 20 or 30 years ago.

I think the bottom line is that first detection is THE most critical thing in a2a combat now - any modern fighter with these newer generation missile can kill any other fighter so long as it can detect, track, and engage them first.

Hence the whole Stealth/F35 argument being so important.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 11:39:15 PM by Gman »

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2013, 01:46:11 AM »
I think the next generation of fighters might be using weapons moving at the speed of light, so all this about weapon engagement zones, no escape zones, counter measures, etc won't mean anything when high tech drones or fighters are using directed energy weapons.  For the next ten or twenty years missiles  will still be important, and you're right IMO, the ability to out maneuver, spoof, decoy, or escape a modern AAM even IF it gets detected are closing in on zero percent.

The missiles are too fast, too maneuverable, and too smart now for any of the old Vietnam and Cold War era maneuvers to have much if any effect IMO.

Even some of the SAM's are now moving at insane speeds, well over Mach 4 or 5 - can you dodge bullets like in the Matrix, because these things are going even faster than that.

Eagl or Mace will probably stop by this thread and have some things to say.

The Russian BUK reached Mach 4 already in 1984.
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2013, 08:50:29 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=2uh4yMAx2UA

F16 dodging 6 SAMs. It was 1991, hence my question. Granted, SAMs are heavier but my question isn't as ridiculous as you make it out to be.

were we talking about sams over 20 years ago?  It is a ridiculous question. Maybe the planes computer could respond but the pilot could not avoid something he cant see or respond that fast when/if he sees it coming.  Not to mention the lack of practice of thr manouver in order to get the timing right.  The era of pilot vs pilot has come and gone.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
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Offline titanic3

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2013, 09:02:54 AM »
were we talking about sams over 20 years ago?  It is a ridiculous question. Maybe the planes computer could respond but the pilot could not avoid something he cant see or respond that fast when/if he sees it coming.  Not to mention the lack of practice of thr manouver in order to get the timing right.  The era of pilot vs pilot has come and gone.

Pretty sure they did it during the Cold War era in combination with countermeasures. Which is why I asked, not stated.  :rolleyes:

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline zack1234

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2013, 11:23:39 AM »
I am off to the shops what should I do? :cry
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2013, 11:34:40 AM »
Not in the last 20+ years.
Based on what?



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Offline Ripsnort

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2013, 01:52:40 PM »
I'm certain eagl is dying to chip in here but due to the nature of oath from his employer...he can't say a word. :)

Offline Gman

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2013, 02:46:11 PM »
I realize this Ripley.  The SA6 was in fact the first of the "new" generation of Soviet systems that started to really change the game.  The IAF learned this the hard far earlier than 1984.  My point is that the lions share of the missile systems up until recently did give the pilot and air force strategists and tactics units something to work with in terms of being able to defeat them through electronic or maneuver means, due to the missile's slower speeds overall, and their less hitech seekers and decision making circuits.

The missiles today....heh, I know I would be VERY keen on making sure I got the first shot in on any opponents, as if any of the modern missiles from any side really get flipped, odds are much higher of them connecting than before.  The S300 and newer Soviet systems move at insane speeds, and lets not even consider some of the anti ballistic missiles systems the US and US Navy are using - it's like watching a beam of light bend when they are moving at max velocity, I have no idea how a targeted aircraft would even start to dodge one by maneuvering, it would be right up there with dodging bullets.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2013, 04:01:25 PM »
Based on what?

Gulf War, Bosnia/Kosovo, Iraq...  Sparrows and AMRAAMs were the top killers.
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Offline curry1

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2013, 06:38:44 PM »
The Russian BUK reached Mach 4 already in 1984.

The SA-5/S-200 reaches mach 8.  They were fielded in the 60s.  Perfect for shooting down an SR-71 or an XB-70.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Surviving 5th Generation A2A missile lunch
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2013, 10:00:14 PM »
Gulf War, Bosnia/Kosovo, Iraq...  Sparrows and AMRAAMs were the top killers.
What were the specific ROE for those individual conflicts?



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