Author Topic: Game or Simulation?  (Read 3262 times)

Offline Fruda

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1267
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2013, 08:42:20 PM »
The flight physics feel quite a bit more realistic than FS9/FSX, but there isn't as much that has been modeled.

I imagine thinking of it as a game that uses aspects of a simulation (namely, the flight models) is the most accurate.

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11621
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2013, 10:43:35 PM »
Game.

Simulation is DCS. Game is AH.

AH is a better WW2 air combat simulator than DCS. DCS fails to give any cues for G load. You have to look at the G gauge in DCS. You don't dogfight looking at gauges. DCS is a better cockpit simulator but that's not what AH is trying to do. DCS does best with modern aircraft where your key data is on the HUD. For large scale simulation like the BOB scenario there is nothing like AH.

Offline Mongoose

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1611
      • Kentwood Station
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2013, 10:58:04 PM »
  To me it is a chance to climb into one of my favorite airplanes and play tag with a bunch of other airplane lovers.
My Aces High training site:
www.kentwoodstation.com

Offline titanic3

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4235
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2013, 11:46:41 PM »
AH is a better WW2 air combat simulator than DCS. DCS fails to give any cues for G load. You have to look at the G gauge in DCS. You don't dogfight looking at gauges. DCS is a better cockpit simulator but that's not what AH is trying to do. DCS does best with modern aircraft where your key data is on the HUD. For large scale simulation like the BOB scenario there is nothing like AH.

Eh, simulation for me is where everything is sacrificed for the sake of realism, including gameplay. DCS might not have the best gameplay but it's as close the real thing as you can get without flying a real A10/P51/Ka50/Su-25. The four biggest sims I can think of is DCS for planes, Arma 3 for infantry, Silent Hunter for subs, and iRacing for cars.

AH to me is a game with sim-level flight models. Most realism factors are taken out for gameplay reasons.

Il-2 Cliffs of Dover and Rise of Flight are what I call in betweens. Il-2 has the cockpit accuracy of DCS, and all the engine management configurations, but their flight model feels like crap. Rise of Flight flight model seems to strive to be as accurate as possible, yet everything is simple to configure that I can't really even name it as a sim. Whether it's simple because the planes themselves are simple (hell, some of them don't even have a speedometer), or the developers dumbed it down, I don't know, but it's extremely easy to jump into Rise of Flight compared to DCS even though they both strive for as much realism as possible.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline muzik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 980
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2013, 12:42:02 AM »
simulation would be even more realistic though

Simulation dumbed down too make a game?

Hop in a simulator one time and you'll have your answer.  ;)

   verbally smacked down by HT informing me it was a game.

Y'all can call it whatever you want to, but you can't change Websters.

In ww2 they put pilots in a wooden box with a few gauges and a teeter totter underneath and called it a simulation.

There is no definition of simulation that says what features are required.

Does anyone know how detailed the first 3D simulation the US air force used was? I'll wager it wasn't as complex as AH.

It's a fun frkn simulation!!!
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2013, 02:03:18 AM »
AH is a better WW2 air combat simulator than DCS. DCS fails to give any cues for G load. You have to look at the G gauge in DCS. You don't dogfight looking at gauges. DCS is a better cockpit simulator but that's not what AH is trying to do. DCS does best with modern aircraft where your key data is on the HUD. For large scale simulation like the BOB scenario there is nothing like AH.

I consider DCS to be more of a 'study' sim, like Falcon 4.0 and Jane's F-15.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Daddkev

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1727
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2013, 02:07:04 AM »
 :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:  It is truly is a stimulation !!!  :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :neener: :neener: :banana: :banana: :banana: :neener: :neener: :x :x :x :x
God Bless America
Go tell Momm, im flying! and make me a sandwich !
EvilKev

2012 68KO Cup 1st Place finisher

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12425
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2013, 10:00:10 AM »
Y'all can call it whatever you want to, but you can't change Websters.

In ww2 they put pilots in a wooden box with a few gauges and a teeter totter underneath and called it a simulation.

There is no definition of simulation that says what features are required.

Does anyone know how detailed the first 3D simulation the US air force used was? I'll wager it wasn't as complex as AH.

It's a fun frkn simulation!!!

I agree with what you are saying. Along with your statement what many people miss , is that the word simulation by it's self is meaningless. Because the would simulator, must be accompanied by a classification.

Obviously AH is not a dish water simulator. Also the next question is what is a product trying to simulate, and why. Many simulators are made simply to learn system management.  The feel of flight, and the edges of the flight envelope are completely irreverent. An IFR simulator would not need much world detail, but the gauge placement would be incredibly important.

You can also not just assume recreating all details will make an accurate simulation. Many times an overall effect must bee looked at, as an example there we people during the war dedicated to provide intercept information to pilots, so some way must be found provide the information those people provided.

And also it must never be forgotten that AH is a game. It's primary purpose is to provide entertainment. At some times adding extreme simulation detail & accuracy to part of the game provides entertainment. Other times adding things do nothing be detract from fun, (example having to wait for oil temp to reach temp before take off, I.E. wait 5 mins on the run way). I do this on cold days in my RV, I don't find it enjoyable in the RV either.

Adjustments must be made for the equipment you a using. The lack of tactile feed back on a computer makes some things much more difficult then real airplanes. The joy stick alone works nothing like a real plane stick. Hence trimming a computer is far more difficult then trimming a real plane.

HiTech



Offline waystin2

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10196
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2013, 01:02:02 PM »
Wait.?!?  AH is not real.... :uhoh
CO for the Pigs On The Wing
& The nicest guy in Aces High!

Offline GhostCDB

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1730
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2013, 01:03:16 PM »
Neither, this game is reality !  :noid
Top Gun

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15737
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2013, 01:45:40 PM »
Folks, if you'd like to try out something that is much closer to simulation of WWII battles, please join us for the upcoming "Battle of Britain" scenario.

Scenarios are events that are based on historical battles.  If you haven't already, you should try at least one to see another aspect of game play.

Battle of Britain runs for four Saturdays in September, starting Sept 7, with start times of 3 pm Eastern.

Here is a pictorial after-action report from one of the days of a past scenario:

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201102_battleOverGermany/aar_frame1.htm

Also, there are other events between MA and scenarios.  "This Day in WWII", SEC, and Snapshots are events also based on WWII battles, but less structure and realism than scenarios; and there are FSO's for squads.  The calendar shows you when they run:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=calendar

Offline muzik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 980
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2013, 11:48:51 PM »
I agree with what you are saying. Along with your statement what many people miss , is that the word simulation by it's self is meaningless. Because the would simulator, must be accompanied by a classification.

Obviously AH is not a dish water simulator. Also the next question is what is a product trying to simulate, and why. Many simulators are made simply to learn system management.  The feel of flight, and the edges of the flight envelope are completely irreverent. An IFR simulator would not need much world detail, but the gauge placement would be incredibly important.

You can also not just assume recreating all details will make an accurate simulation. Many times an overall effect must bee looked at, as an example there we people during the war dedicated to provide intercept information to pilots, so some way must be found provide the information those people provided.

And also it must never be forgotten that AH is a game. It's primary purpose is to provide entertainment. At some times adding extreme simulation detail & accuracy to part of the game provides entertainment. Other times adding things do nothing be detract from fun, (example having to wait for oil temp to reach temp before take off, I.E. wait 5 mins on the run way). I do this on cold days in my RV, I don't find it enjoyable in the RV either.

Adjustments must be made for the equipment you a using. The lack of tactile feed back on a computer makes some things much more difficult then real airplanes. The joy stick alone works nothing like a real plane stick. Hence trimming a computer is far more difficult then trimming a real plane.

HiTech





Aside from all the ceaseless echoing of "Hitech said it's a game," there are plenty of clues in the game design that demonstrate you get the difference and what your goal was from the start.

I'm just tired of the "it's not a simulator" spaz attacks. I am not even close to the type that takes the simulation aspect to it's full stride. But if I ever do feel the need, Brooke has plenty of garage sale signs to point me in the right direction.

I do have an appreciation for his effort and believe it's an undeveloped aspect of the game. I didn't participate in scenarios mostly because of the scheduling and inconvenience of it. If it was a integral aspect of the MA, I might participate half the time.

Those types of players should not be excluded from the MA because players without enough foresight to imagine that a more realistic representation of warfare could coincide with a free for all type game play and even benefit the game.

Take the new formation command for example. I've heard folks enjoy it. I've also seen someone suggest that it makes the game too easy or gamey because it takes the "skill" out of the game. And I agree to a point, but just like your engine warm up example, it's a relatively unimportant shortcut.

It is exactly like things I see in your design to make the game more enjoyable and less tedious yet it is indicative of the desire for more "simulation" type features. My definition of simulation being something that mimics all or some of the experience of the air war; and I don't believe that excludes the possibility of fun for the less enthusiastic crowd.



Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline FLOOB

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3058
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2013, 07:17:34 AM »
Trick question. Simulation is a genre of video GAME
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans” - John Steinbeck

Offline Flifast

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 311
      • Claim Jumpers
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2013, 09:37:47 AM »
Don't laugh...but I think it makes me a better pilot!  I'm listed as one of the smoothest landing pilots verified by FOQA!

Flifast

Offline captain1ma

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14793
      • JG54 website
Re: Game or Simulation?
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2013, 10:10:55 AM »
this is a game??? :huh  i thought it was real life!!