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Author Topic: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter  (Read 8950 times)

Offline whiteman

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2013, 05:45:32 PM »
Quote from: Karnak on August 12, 2013, 05:25:46 PM
Also, how could you list off those night fighters and leave off the best night fighter of the war?   :P

He-219 :D
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Offline Karnak

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2013, 06:04:21 PM »
Quote from: whiteman on August 12, 2013, 05:45:32 PM
He-219 :D
Good gods no.  That wasn't even the best German night fighter.  It was an overhyped, under performing hunk of junk.  A very neat looking hunk of junk though.
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Offline thrila

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2013, 06:40:33 PM »
<Grabs popcorn and waits for Franz Werra>
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Offline Saxman

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2013, 06:53:30 PM »
Quote from: Karnak on August 12, 2013, 05:25:46 PM

Also, how could you list off those night fighters and leave off the best night fighter of the war?   :P

Geeze, I SAID "Etc."  :P

So how would you handle airborne radar in AH if it were to be added?
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Offline Karnak

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2013, 08:16:01 PM »
Quote from: Saxman on August 12, 2013, 06:53:30 PM
Geeze, I SAID "Etc."  :P

So how would you handle airborne radar in AH if it were to be added?
I wouldn't.  I'd just add the planes and let people play with them, but as we don't have night the radar would be almost completely useless.  Tail warning radar, which the P-61 and some others had, might be useful, but I'd be inclined to not even model that.

During daylight operations, which is what we have in AH, the Mk I eyeball is much better than WWII airborne radar.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2013, 09:08:22 PM »
Quote from: Karnak on August 12, 2013, 08:16:01 PM
I wouldn't.  I'd just add the planes and let people play with them, but as we don't have night the radar would be almost completely useless.  Tail warning radar, which the P-61 and some others had, might be useful, but I'd be inclined to not even model that.

During daylight operations, which is what we have in AH, the Mk I eyeball is much better than WWII airborne radar.

Just for the sake of argument, what if night fighters WERE added with the intent of having night in the Main Arenas, with the environment corrected to prevent the Gamma cheat?
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Offline Charge

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2013, 01:37:46 AM »
"That wasn't even the best German night fighter.  It was an overhyped, under performing hunk of junk.  A very neat looking hunk of junk though."

Oh, and what was a better one? You're quoting Mr Brown there, huh?

There was no overhyping when certain persons in LW administration tried to end its production claiming that the front line units preferred Ju388 instead. The debate ended what facts were presented that all frontline night fighter units absolutely wanted the 219 once they had tried it and the Ju388 was not even in production yet.

I'm a bit surprised how many Mossies the underpowered piece of junk shot down after all, maybe the Mossie was not very fast. Or is that the issue here?  :D

-C+
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Offline Scherf

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2013, 02:31:17 AM »
Not to put too fine a point on it, but it may have shot down fewer Mossies than you are thinking.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2013, 04:41:09 AM »
It was the Ju88G, not the Ju388J.

Between June 16 and Nov 3 1944 the He219 claimed 10 Mossies.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2013, 05:35:49 AM »
What people need to remember is that no aircraft were flying at full throttle unless they were in combat. A Mossie doesn't have fuel to fly at MIL power all the way from Britain to Germany and back. It had a high cruise speed and was very difficult to intercept, but it wasn't impossible.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2013, 06:41:01 AM »
Quote from: Charge on August 13, 2013, 01:37:46 AM
"That wasn't even the best German night fighter.  It was an overhyped, under performing hunk of junk.  A very neat looking hunk of junk though."

Oh, and what was a better one?


Me 262B-1a/U1


By performance, the best night fighter of the war. By score record the best would arguably be the Ju 88G, Me 110G and Mossie NF.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 06:44:19 AM by GScholz »
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Offline bozon

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2013, 06:43:41 AM »
Quote from: GScholz on August 13, 2013, 05:35:49 AM
What people need to remember is that no aircraft were flying at full throttle unless they were in combat. A Mossie doesn't have fuel to fly at MIL power all the way from Britain to Germany and back. It had a high cruise speed and was very difficult to intercept, but it wasn't impossible.
True. PR mosquitoes were doing 2000 miles routes averaging just over 300 mph for the entire trip which was considered record breaking. 300 mph is not impossible to intercept. Of course, if the mossie was aware of enemy presence it would accelerate to max speed and try to escape the immediate threat, then slow down again - but it had to detect the enemy first.

Quote from: GScholz on August 13, 2013, 06:41:01 AM
By performance, the best night fighter of the war. By score record the best would arguably be the Ju 88G and Mossie NF.
At a fairly early stage, mossie NFs ran out of Lufwaffe bombers to shoot down. The LW simply stopped sending them to their deaths. NFs (the AI equiped ones) were not allowed to fly over occupied countries till much later, so during a long period they were dried out of targets.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 06:48:19 AM by bozon »
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Offline Charge

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2013, 07:45:31 AM »
"By performance, the best night fighter of the war. By score record the best would arguably be the Ju 88G, Me 110G and Mossie NF."

Too fast as a night fighter to intercept slower bombers and the weapons and their setup is not really suitable for close interception which was common in night fighting, but it was good to catch faster aircraft like Mossies. He219 never had the same chance as 110 and Ju88 to prove itself but for that while it was used it proved to be an excellent night fighter. Comparing Ju88 and 219 is a bit like apples and oranges, they both had their strong and weak points by design.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2013, 08:39:47 AM »
It had throttles. It could fly as slow or as fast as the pilot deemed suitable. Only a handful of B-1a/U1 saw service with NJG 11 and they were tasked with Mossie interception for obvious reasons. This tiny force accounted for most of the Mossie kills in late '44 and '45.
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Offline Scherf

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Re: P-61 Black Widow, Night Fighter
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2013, 08:56:34 AM »
Most of the 262s over Berlin at night were actually single-seaters, methinks (not really my specialty, but...)
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