Author Topic: HiTech taking a buddy flying?  (Read 1213 times)

Offline Golfer

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2013, 01:04:30 PM »
It was a snap roll entry into an upright spin which resulted in the aircraft being inverted momentarily.  Slightly uncoordinated, positive load with a slightly higher than usual deck angle when demonstrating spins in a simple high wing Cessna due to the extra speed.  Who promoted you to wet blanket buzzkill nitpicker during storytime anyway? Isn't that what I'm supposed to do???  ;)

I've been in only a couple inadvertent inverted spins which came from a couple botched hammerheads.  Once when I was trying to teach myself something and another, the only time I ever thought for a moment I may not actually fly away from the ground, with a student who made basically the same mistake I made a couple years earlier.

The feeling immediately after the latter really really really sucked when the adrenaline rush left.

Offline Shifty

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2013, 01:13:44 PM »
"holy s**t, turn the f**king plane back on!"   :lol


 :aok


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Offline eagl

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2013, 02:30:52 PM »
eagl that reminds me of flight testing Cessna was doing for the new military primary flight trainer proposal. Every 100 spins they stuck a decal on the side of the aircraft like a kill emblem. A couple of those prototypes had a side full of stickers as they tested spin behavior in all kinds of attitudes, atmospheric conditions, weights and cg locations. Beech was awarded the contract with what became the T-6 Texan II.

I never had a chance to see or fly any of the other contestants, but I did miss several things about the T-37 that would have been included in the Cessna proposal.  Managing 2 jet engines is valuable training for military flying.  The single turboprop of the T-6 does the job very efficiently and it has plenty of power, but it doesn't have the complexity of two engines and I missed that part of training students, especially when teaching them how to manage emergency situations.  I also missed the nearly care-free handling of the T-37 including its robust flight envelope and tolerance to students abusing it.  The T-6 is, to put it very mildly, more delicate.  Its landing gear is narrower, the tires suck, the brakes are twitchy, and if you mis-handle the flight controls you might rip off the prop.  T-6 students lose the ability to learn how to max perform the aircraft by finding the fine line between flying and not flying, and the lessons learned right there on the edge of the flight envelope can be valuable in future operational flying.  Also, I miss sitting next to the student and being able to watch or help him manage his cockpit resources, including the ability to intervene before he does something dumb like lowering the landing gear 100 kts above gear extension/retraction speed.  Side by side seating is really good in a primary trainer, and in my first 300 hours of flying the T-6 I had more student-caused malfunctions/emergencies than I had in 970 T-37 hours, simply because I couldn't see what the student was doing with his hands.

Also, teaching engine-out landings was very time consuming.  We had to do it and if done properly it can teach mastery of the aircraft and energy management, but it takes a lot of time to get even a new T-6 instructor pilot proficient in engine out emergency landing procedures.  That time could have been spent teaching other things.

Last, the Navy had a HUGE say in the T-6 requirements, including avionics.  Then they saw how much problems the USAF has had with the T-6A avionics since we got our planes first, and they demanded a complete re-do of the avionics before they started getting their planes.  What a hose job, in the name of "jointness".  The T-6 is a nice plane but I think we could have done better in many ways, including a more durable, side-by-side seating, twin turbojet aircraft with real mil-spec multifunction displays and avionics.  Or at least a better simulation of an operational cockpit avionics setup...

That said, if the AF offered me the chance to go back to flying the T-6, T-38, or even maybe that one guy who maintains T-37 qualification just in case someone wants to use the hundreds of tweets parked out at DM, I'd have a really hard time saying no.  Even the T-6 is better than non-flying jobs and many flying gigs as well.
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Offline doright

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2013, 04:39:23 PM »
Cessna's JPAT proposal was a lot different then the Tweet: http://jetav.com/the-citationjet-that-wasnt/
It was designed with extremely easy maintenance in mind. A lot of things would take longer to fill out all the paper then the actual work.

You do make an excellent point about the advantage of side by side for a primary trainer.
Armaments 3:9 "Fireth thee not in their forward quarters lest thee be beset by 200 imps and be naughty in their sight."

Offline Kenne

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2013, 08:18:34 PM »
the video is fake, because when they go inverted no coins drop on the canopy :D
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Offline eagl

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2013, 10:21:27 PM »
Cessna's JPAT proposal was a lot different then the Tweet: http://jetav.com/the-citationjet-that-wasnt/
It was designed with extremely easy maintenance in mind. A lot of things would take longer to fill out all the paper then the actual work.

You do make an excellent point about the advantage of side by side for a primary trainer.

If JPATS is so easy to maintain, why are there about 3000 "urgent" change requests dating back over 10 years that have not been accomplished?  Seriously, that plane is a maintenance nightmare only because HBC has been unable/unwilling to fix even stupidly simple problems with the plane and the USAF isn't holding their feet to the fire.  3000 or more major maintenance changes, some of which could result in the loss of the aircraft or major damage, going un-fixed for a decade.

Sorry, JPATS was a huge song and dance.  It works because a massive effort was made to sell the USAF a complete training SYSTEM (including sims, academics, etc) instead of just an aircraft, but that also means that the program was sold on the bottom line - cost efficiency.  And that means that we got what we paid for, and we apparently didn't pay for HBC to do little things like wrap wire bundles so they don't chafe, and when we discover a chafed wire bundle in 90% of the fleet and have a really easy maintenance fix, the fix goes 10 YEARS without being implemented, resulting in thousands of man hours lost inspecting and taping that damned wire bundle up over and over.  Multiply that by 3000 similar problems and proposed yet un-implemented fixes, and that's what the easy to maintain JPATS looks like to a maintenance supervisor.  Yea some things are easy, but the plane is still a jigsaw puzzle with thousands tiny stupid problems that could be fixed, but aren't.

I'll give you another example, that caused me to recall an aircraft.  A function check found a bad fuel shutoff valve, but otherwise the plane passed the functional check.  Maintenance replaced the valve, which required an engine run.  The engine run tech order doesn't include a test of the replaced fuel shutoff valve, nor does it trigger another functional check.  So they ran the motor, did not test the valve, and put the plane back onto the schedule.   :bhead  I had to recall the aircraft, logged the sortie as an air abort for maintenance, and of course maintenance blamed it on HBC and the USAF for leaving such an obvious glaring loophole in the maintenance procedures.  They should have been smart and called our FCF pilot to test that valve before it got on the schedule, but the tech order and maintenance cards should have covered that item.  That was 4 years ago, and I would bet $20 that the manuals have not been updated yet in spite of this being a potential cause for an uncontrollable inflight fire if that valve fails to function when needed because it wasn't properly tested.

Multiply that problem by 3000 backlogged change requests dating back to the beginning of the JPATS program...

Some people wonder why I'm not such a fanboi of the AT-6 program.  I'm sure it would be a fine aircraft especially for an air force using the T-6 already (like the Iraqi AF), since the basic transition training would be a really simple aircraft checkout, but I've seen HBC's game.  The HBC employees I've worked with directly have been great but the overall program management has left me with a lot of questions about why some parts of the program are run the way they are run.  The more I learned, the more I paid attention to teeny tiny details during my preflight and postflight inspections.

Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline doright

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2013, 11:10:08 PM »
Well I was talking about Cessna's submission to the JPATs competition (see link) not the Beech/Pilatus entry (who Bob Dole allegedly mandated the contract award to).
Armaments 3:9 "Fireth thee not in their forward quarters lest thee be beset by 200 imps and be naughty in their sight."

Offline eagl

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 12:47:40 AM »
Well I was talking about Cessna's submission to the JPATs competition (see link) not the Beech/Pilatus entry (who Bob Dole allegedly mandated the contract award to).

Oh, ok sorry.

I had hoped the Cessna version would win, too.  The T-37 was such a resounding success that it would have been very nice to fly the next generation of the same design and training system.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline cpxxx

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 09:07:35 AM »
Same video popped up on Youtube (possibly the original) where the aircraft is idendified as an Alpha 160.  Which lends some credibility to the idea this is in NZ since Alpha is a NZ aircraft company.  I've never seen one in the states, don't know if they import here or not.
Yes that fits, definitely NZ then. But I would also suggest that there must be a similar rule about parachutes and aerobatics in New Zealand.

But then who am I to preach. Eagl and Golfer's discussion reminds me of the time when I clearly breached FAR 91.307(c).  :noid Rolling Cessna 150s with my friend Andy. Speaking of inverted spins, on another occasion after climbing to 12,000 feet in a 150 somewhere over Arkansas. Then spinning it down to 4000. We had intended to recover higher but a botched recovery found us inverted but still spinning. I knew we were inverted because my flight bag fell onto the ceiling. :O Andy's cool reaction was 'Ah I see we're inverted'. We learned our lesson, on the next three spins we kept upright all the way down.  :D

Happy days!

Offline Golfer

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 09:28:38 AM »
Yes that fits, definitely NZ then. But I would also suggest that there must be a similar rule about parachutes and aerobatics in New Zealand.


As a result of curiosity I took a peek.  There doesn't appear to be such a rule.  Buncha Dudley Do-Right snitches.

Offline cpxxx

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2013, 09:58:17 AM »
As a result of curiosity I took a peek.  There doesn't appear to be such a rule.  Buncha Dudley Do-Right snitches.
in that spirit. I took at peek at our rules for Ireland and for the UK. Parachutes not required, although recommended. Just the over protective FAA then.

Offline doright

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2013, 01:00:55 PM »
Buncha Dudley Do-Right snitches.

 :cry

I did notice that NZ has a aerobatic rating with currency requirements. That makes a lot more sense then a mere parachute requirement.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 01:11:54 PM by doright »
Armaments 3:9 "Fireth thee not in their forward quarters lest thee be beset by 200 imps and be naughty in their sight."

Offline colmbo

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2013, 06:30:35 PM »
In the US the requirement for parachutes when doing acro applies only if you have passengers.
Columbo

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Offline Curval

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2013, 07:17:49 PM »
That could be my son in a few years, lol


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Offline Babalonian

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Re: HiTech taking a buddy flying?
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2013, 07:26:14 PM »
And don't get this conversation started on that even "passenger" is up to interpretation.  IE: Paying or not?
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Wow, you guys need help.