Author Topic: Cuban Missile Crisis  (Read 3129 times)

Offline Hap

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2013, 08:21:01 PM »
The guy who saved the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Arkhipov

Scholzy, here's PBS' take.  Watching right now.  Can't vouch for the documentary's quality since I've not finished: http://video.pbs.org/video/2295274962/

Now I'm 30 mins in.  This is crazy scary.  I visited bomb shelters in Los Angeles built by guys whom my Mom knew.

And fwiw, I say youngsters, generally, do not possess the gravitas to understand this moment.  Not all, but most.  The guys involved lived through WW2 or were of age when it happened.  This is not light stuff.  The "today" verbal bluster cannot account or negotiate real adult things.  No matter how awful those adult things be.  This is not a Facebook moment.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 08:59:25 PM by Hap »

Offline 800nate800

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2013, 10:23:21 PM »
former squeaker, but you wont 1v1 about it
Most my friends are banned......
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Offline zack1234

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2013, 02:51:17 AM »
My dad could have beaten up your dad, back in 1962.

My dad is Ink so your wrong!
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2013, 05:15:00 AM »
Scholzy, here's PBS' take.  Watching right now.  Can't vouch for the documentary's quality since I've not finished: http://video.pbs.org/video/2295274962/

Now I'm 30 mins in.  This is crazy scary.  I visited bomb shelters in Los Angeles built by guys whom my Mom knew.

And fwiw, I say youngsters, generally, do not possess the gravitas to understand this moment.  Not all, but most.  The guys involved lived through WW2 or were of age when it happened.  This is not light stuff.  The "today" verbal bluster cannot account or negotiate real adult things.  No matter how awful those adult things be.  This is not a Facebook moment.

Pretty good documentary. Few people today truly understand the level of paranoia and fear of annihilation people lived under every day back then.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2013, 05:28:54 AM »
Its unlikely any Soviet bombers would have gotten thru and no Soviet missile submarines were in the area. So they had about 320 strategic weapons capable of hitting America and about all but 50 delivered by bombers that probably wouldnt get thru.

Where the Soviet missile subs were at the time is unknown, but if a war broke out they would be sailing towards the US to make their attack. Some if not all would get through. After all the four subs the Soviets sent to Cuba eluded The entire US Atlantic fleet for weeks, and one of them was never detected. After receiving 50 ICBM's do you really think the US would be capable of defending itself against the (estimated 155+) Soviet bombers?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 05:32:29 AM by GScholz »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2013, 07:34:27 AM »
Where the Soviet missile subs were at the time is unknown, but if a war broke out they would be sailing towards the US to make their attack. Some if not all would get through. After all the four subs the Soviets sent to Cuba eluded The entire US Atlantic fleet for weeks, and one of them was never detected. After receiving 50 ICBM's do you really think the US would be capable of defending itself against the (estimated 155+) Soviet bombers?

Yes. NORAD was its own command. With the Canadians as well.

All this assuming the 50 1st Gen Soviet ICBMs actually worked, and hit what they aimed at, but I doubt they would have targeted NORAD or TAC. They would have sent them after SAC bases and cities, keeping some in reserve. I'd bet at least 75% of them would be targeted for SAC Bomber and Missile bases as well as CNC.

Heres a chronology http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB75/subchron.htm of submarine activity during the crisis. You see we had a far better handle on it then you seem to think. The thing about their missile boats is they use to hide them under the ice, or on the edge of polar ice, and there wait for deployment orders. That gives them very predictable approach lanes to the eastern seaboard and as you see we had deployed a huge ASW contingent to look for them. Once we decided to look for these Soviet subs we found them in short order.

Yes a few would get thru. Yes the war would have been catastrophic for us, "at least by how we define such things", nobody is arguing that. But the entire Soviet Union would have been a radioactive smoking ruin. America had a large preponderance of nuclear forces and thats why the Reds backed down. Can you really argue against that? 20% of SAC's bomber force was in the air at any one time during the crisis, the rest were dispersed all over the place and could be in the air within 15 mins. Khrushchev himself later told his son, "Kennedy had us by the b---s but didnt squeeze".

Even the rabid Red ideologues didnt want this war. In their theory communism was going to eventually win out against its enemy anyways so's its best if theres a world left over for it to inherit. I suspect the big Bosses in Russia also didnt want to lose their dacha's, mistresses, fancy cars, or the pampered futures for their children. We arent all that different after all.

The result of this entire mess was a big build up of Soviet nuclear deterrence, the concept of MAD, Euro Realpolitik, and eventually detente. Of course eventually the end of The Cold War came about cause the Soviet economic model could not sustain an arms build up against NATO and the west. So the missile crisis had very large implications across the board. Who knows what would have happened if the nuclear forces were only equal, or close to equal? We might be living in a "Boy and his dog" type of world.

I served in SAC during the height of The Cold War. None of this stuff was a joke and i can only imagine what it was like being on DEFCON 2 for days on end. All it could take was one accident or Loon making a mistake. If I remember right the Soviet Commander in Cuba was authorized to release nuclear weapons so all it would have taken was for him to have a bad day. 
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2013, 08:55:59 AM »
And Europe, and Asia would also have been radioactive cinders. Americans may have suffered most in the long run; I'd rather take the thermal blast in the face than being a "survivor" and succumbing to the horrors of a post-apocalyptic radioactive wasteland. I'm not as confident in the USN's ability to track Soviet subs in the 1960s as you; and I'm very skeptical to the functionality of NORAD and its radars after a nuclear strike. I'd be surprised if they could get even the interceptors' electronics repaired and working in time to stop the incoming bombers. Fortunately we can debate these things without the certainty of history... since it never happened.
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Offline Hap

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2013, 09:40:55 AM »
since it never happened.
  And thank goodness for that.  How things did not get loose with all those arms in close proximity and Berlin never came into play.  Phew!

Offline zack1234

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2013, 05:03:54 AM »
The West made money out of the Coldwar, the East was bankrupted :)

Now the Russians live in Manhatton :rofl
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Offline R 105

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2013, 08:16:14 AM »
See Rule #14
What would that be the politically correct version of event? PC is killing the country.

Offline Lusche

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2013, 08:21:35 AM »
What would that be the politically correct version of event? PC is killing the country.

I think he doesn't care much about the C part, it's the P part in general ;)
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Offline R 105

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2013, 10:05:29 AM »
 What I said was histrically correct not politcal at all. Like Jack Webb on Drag Net said' Just the facts.

Offline zack1234

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2013, 10:22:08 AM »
Scholzy, here's PBS' take.  Watching right now.  Can't vouch for the documentary's quality since I've not finished: http://video.pbs.org/video/2295274962/

Now I'm 30 mins in.  This is crazy scary.  I visited bomb shelters in Los Angeles built by guys whom my Mom knew.

And fwiw, I say youngsters, generally, do not possess the gravitas to understand this moment.  Not all, but most.  The guys involved lived through WW2 or were of age when it happened.  This is not light stuff.  The "today" verbal bluster cannot account or negotiate real adult things.  No matter how awful those adult things be.  This is not a Facebook moment.

What are you talking about?

What has this to do with stupid people (young and old) who quote Wikaidiot and claim to be informed :)


Cuban missile crisis is in the realm of urban myth and is a example of paranoia which reinvents itself every 50 years, the US still uses Cuba as a bogeyman, the reality is that they make good cigars that everyone can buy except you :)

I do blame Cuba for the way North Korea behaves though :old:
There are no pies stored in this plane overnight

                          
The GFC
Pipz lived in the Wilderness near Ontario

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2013, 11:11:07 AM »
Zack maybe you should just go back to the infantile one-Liners. Your experience and grasp of strategic matters threatens to overwhelm us here.


What are you talking about?

What has this to do with stupid people (young and old) who quote Wikaidiot and claim to be informed :)


Cuban missile crisis is in the realm of urban myth and is a example of paranoia which reinvents itself every 50 years, the US still uses Cuba as a bogeyman, the reality is that they make good cigars that everyone can buy except you :)

I do blame Cuba for the way North Korea behaves though :old:
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Hajo

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Re: Cuban Missile Crisis
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2013, 12:02:42 PM »
I remember JFKs' speech on TV to the American people.  This one statement made it scary " Any weapons launched from Cuba on the United States would be considered an act of War by the Soviet Union on the United States which will result in a full retaliatory strike on the Soviet Union by the United States."  even though I quoted this....it's only the gist of what JFK said.  Our whole family was around the TV at that time to listen to what our President had to say.  And yes....imho this is the closest this world has come to nuclear disaster.  It was truly scary.  After this incident Khrushchev faded from the picture as the USSRs Premier.

Folks.....this was a game of chicken.  Who would flinch first.  Seeing our blockade. Soviet ships actually changed course and went home.  They wanted no such confrontation.

I remember Khrushchev  banging his shoe on a lectern while addressing the UN telling the US that the USSR would bury us.
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