Open Letter to Plissken and FSO CMs

[33Vortex]

The action this last friday FSO was great, from our perspective. I am sure some will disagree, maybe they were shot down, maybe they discoed. As for getting shot down well, we've all been shot down in AH haven't we, and it can be a bummer but remember it's a game and as such the #1 reason we are all here is to have fun and it's only after that our priorities start to differ from player to player. In JG11, the squadron I'm priviliged to be a part of, we take great pleasure in flying as a squadron (staffel if you will), working as one single team toward the same end goal and not let our comrades down. That, is what brings me to the subject of this letter.

JG11 had orders to fly a staffel of 109s as escort for a strike package of mixed bombers, we had a rendezvous (did I spell that right??) point about halfway across the channel. It was there we were headed at the point Stampf discoed. We were all flying together in formation on 270 level flight in tight order as he disappeared, then reappeared a couple km behind us, our CO and flight lead had discoed. Someone stated the obvious on vox and I think we all thought the same, it's ok he'll be able to log back on and right back into his plane. Imagine then, the disappointment when it became known that he wasn't allowed back into the arena. The reason given was... that combat had been joined on mainland Britain several sectors away... some seconds ago! Ok, so I can buy the concept of not coming back into the arena... if the fields are closed. IF this is... as I have heard it to be, a denial to enter because combat was joined 100 miles away a minute before or so... it is my personal opinion that it is unacceptable behavior by a person administering the arena for the enjoyment of others. That is right, this is a game and there is one interest we all share and have common in this, air combat. In case you failed to see that point already, we log on friday night to have FUN. There are NO lives at stake. Personally FSOs start 5 am my time, and if this would have happened to me... you could just as well have pissed in my morning coffe after the 1½ hrs of sleep I got before the kids woke me up.

Now this didn't happen to me, it happened to Stampf. My CO who I know from some years back when we flew Der Grosse Schlag together, I and JG11 as a group look to him as a leader in flight and within the squad. Now, we did ok without him, had lots of fun flying together... I was fortunate to score some kills, some were less fortunate. It goes with the game we play.
What does not go with the game was what happened to Stampf. He was denied his fun that night. He could easily have been allowed back in and it would not have been noticed, it would not have affected the frame in any other way than that he would have been there having fun with us all (imaginary foes and all). I am asking WHY? I hear it was because Plissken did not accept him back into the arena. Well, who is Plissken? I do not know you, I have never met you, we've never spoken. At best I think I recall seing your name somewhere in text buffer as any other fellow AH player. Regardless of who you are, and you may be a respected and good person in your family and among friends, but I do not agree with nor do I like what you did friday night. It is not acceptable behavior for someone administering a event, to decide who gets to play and who doesn't, not without a reasonable cause.

So, what was it that caused you to lock a player out of the arena? If you can not come forward with a reasonable explanation to this, I must ask you to either be relieved of your duties, or heavily reprimanded. It is what would happen in real life, and this is real life. What happens in the game is not, but we are all people meeting in this game to have fun and when you deny a person that fun and deny some 16 people the fun of enjoying the game together something is out of order, if there was no clear cut rule break motivating the action.

I demand to get a explanation to this, for JG11 and I was denied this friday the fun we are all paying for and to function as intended as a unit. It affected our performance to some degree, although unknown, just as it also affected other squads we were co-operating with. What happened, if I've perceived this correctly, go beyond the game, it goes into a personal area as a insult. To Stampf primarily, as he was the person left out this friday night for no particular reason, but also for me and JG11. That is what is unacceptable, and I personally do not accept an apology but I'd accept a explanation so that it can become known exactly what happened and why.

To Plissken and the community I <S> you for all you've done for this friday and in the game overall. Without all of you, this game would not be what it is.

 

[ImADot]

I will address some of your comments...

Well, who is Plissken?

Plissken is a member of the CM team, and works the FSO as a setup/bouncer. This means sometimes he works for 30 minutes or so to help before the event to make sure the roster is clean and everyone is showing in a registered squad; sometimes he's the guy who logs in an hour or two before the event to set up the arena according to the design, and stays until the event is over and everyone has left. A Setup's job typically lasts 3-4 hours and they do not get to fly because they are busy hosting the event.

So, what was it that caused you to lock a player out of the arena?

It is not acceptable behavior for someone administering a event, to decide who gets to play and who doesn't, not without a reasonable cause.

The rules. It is stated that fields close 15 minutes after the event starts...except for discos OR COMBAT HAS BEEN JOINED. Flight is disabled, the arena is not locked and nobody is denied entry to the arena. Once the fighting starts, the only way back into the air is if the disco reconnect feature works; and it seems to depend on the nature of the disco, because I've heard reports that it works for some but not others. The rule about not letting people re-up after combat starts is because there will always be some people that will claim to be discoed when they were actually shot down, and we cannot tell when someone discos, so to be fair we don't allow people to re-up once the bullets start flying.

If you can not come forward with a reasonable explanation to this, I must ask you to either be relieved of your duties, or heavily reprimanded.

We debrief and discuss events in our CM discussion forum, and if there is ever an issue with a CM, believe me when I say we deal with it as a CM team and will not discuss matters in public. What happened to your squad was unfortunate timing, nothing more.

I demand to get a explanation to this, for JG11 and I was denied this friday the fun we are all paying for and to function as intended as a unit.

We will listen and respond to questions. We will take criticism and suggestions for possible changes or enhancements to events. Making demands is not the way to engage our team.

and I personally do not accept an apology but I'd accept a explanation so that it can become known exactly what happened and why.

You will not get an apology for what happened, as there was no wrong-doing. I have explained what happens during an event and why. I think we can move past this now and enjoy the game again.

 

[Tank-Ace]

While I see the reasoning behind it, I also discoed right before combat started. Literally as I entered the arena, my CO said "sorry bud, combat just joined".

I was severely disappointed, since it was the first time I could fly FSO in almost 2 years.

[33Vortex]

Perhaps I was not clear enough but any apology would have no effect, the damage is done and nothing short of time travel would get us back to friday night.

I appreciate that you do not prefer to discuss openly matters concerning the CM team however when someone is asking a question openly there should be no need for secrecy, unless there is something to hide. Did you look into this matter, a simple lack of desire to deal with a problem of this sort will not reflect positively on the team. My inquiry is warranted as the action taken deprived one player (and customer) of his friday squad operations experience. If that is your policy, as a CM team, to play god who gets to play and who doesn't outside of given rules well I need not say more. It is unclear even whether Stampf discoed before or after combat was joined, would you care to look into that matter even?

Why are we here? Why do we log on? What was the problem you had with Stamp friday night so that he was denied FSO? What exactly happened?

If you feel that you don't want to answer those questions, or don't have to. What are you doing as a FSO CM?

[Squire]

There is a rule that states no reups after combat is joined. In a nutshell that's the reason the reup was denied at least from the info I have right at the moment. That being said I am looking into the disco reup rules we have in FSO and the incident in question. That's all I can say about it right now. We are never happy about a FSO player in good standing not being able to participate whatever the reason or circumstances might be.

[33Vortex]

There is a rule that states no reups after combat is joined. In a nutshell that's the reason the reup was denied at least from the info I have right at the moment. That being said I am looking into the disco reup rules we have in FSO. That's all I can say about it right now. We are never happy about a FSO player in good standing not being able to participate whatever the reason or circumstances might be.

Thankyou, I appreciate that. Perhaps the rules might be re-written then (if possible) so that players a hundred miles from combat could be able to re-join flight? I know we are working with some technical restraints here, so it may not be possible. But if possible, I am of the opinion that it should be considered. It could happen to me next time, and I would not be happy about it considering that I have to exchange sleep for FSO.

[33Vortex]

Had to explain myself in our squad forum. I do this on my own initiative, and want that to be clear to everyone involved. If this was done for unjust cause, something should be done. If that is a rewrite of the rules, change of staff or whatever I do not know. I just think that when people invest much in this (game) activity no other player should have the right to deny anyone their fun without just cause. That is all I am asking.

My post reveal that I'm of the opinion that Plissken did wrong, but I do not have all the facts and am not 100% sure. So, my post is all about openly inquiring into the matter to get to what really happened, and get it out in the open. If you read my post differently please let me know.

It was unfortunate what happened friday night, and I want to know what happened. I did this on my own initiative without talking to anyone beforehand, as I personally want the answers out in the open.

 

[Tank-Ace]

Depending the volume of Players discoing, would it be practical to check their squad affiliation, and use the .wingman command to locate one of their squad mates?

If they're in combat, no reup. If not, let them fly.

[Stellaris]

In every game the refs are the refs, and they gotta make the calls.  Sometimes the calls are good, sometimes they aren't, but in every game, the refs are right even when they're wrong.  The reason is simple, there has to be a line somewhere, and no matter where it is, there are always going to be cases where it's too close to call - but the refs have to call it anyway, because that's their job.  It takes an incredible amount of work to put these events on, nobody gets paid for doing it, they do it 'cuz they love it.  I don't know all the CM staff, but I have seen enough to have faith in their integrity.  They aren't out to screw anyone, they want everyone to have fun too, and I guarantee no-one likes making unpopular calls.  They still gotta make 'em though, because if they don't then it's a free-for-all.  Yeah, it sucks when the call goes against you, but sportsmanship comes in rising above that and coming back stronger next time.

Paul

[33Vortex]

Sportsmanship is not about being stupid. Sportsmanship in this context is about having the honor and courtesy to let the admins do their job. But what about if they aren't? How about they deny you the right to re-up even if you come back before combat is joined? Would you shut up because the fun police is in town?

Stampf
22:05:49 Departed from Field #116 in a Bf 109E-4
22:25:16 Vanished without a trace.

At what time exactly did combat commence? Also, does the log book the disco correctly at the time the player connection is lost, or is the time noted for when the AI controlled plane is gone?

Additionally, Plissken apparently participated in the event himself contrary to what is stated above.

plissken
22:05:54 Departed from Field #46 in a Hurricane Mk I
22:36:10 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by RickyZ33.
22:36:52 Shot down a Ju 87D-3 flown by doc1aga.
22:53:03 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #37.
23:04:19 Shot down a He 111H flown by BLBird.
23:05:45 Awarded kill as Stang crashes.
23:10:14 Arrived Safely at Field #44

And that is according to the logs. So what is really going on is what I'm asking? Was Plissken partial in this? I personally would not think so, but one has to ask the question if the admin is actively taking part in the event.

[Big Rat]

I think most of us that have played FSO long enough have been in Stampf's position, or worse yet, discoes just as combat has been joined and in the midst of giving orders (worst case).  Yes it ticks us off, but we go with the rules, and help our squad how we can without actively flying (eg. ride along with your wingman and still give orders and check 6's, and be the official text buffer monitor and typer).  I'm confident the CM's are discussing this event currently, and assure you this was nothing personal against Stampf or JG11.  Trust me when I say Stampf and JG11 are held in highest requard in this game.  This was simply a standing rule that caught Stampf at a bad spot, and the rule is probably currently under review.

 
BigRat  

[pops57]

The rules appear to read 15 min. or if combat has been joined, so it looks to have been the correct call per rule. Sucks but there it is! Maybe rule tweaking is in order, but demanding something --really? As was said ,it is after all just a game and mostly staffed by volunteers. I would be shocked if there were anything nefarious about this happening.  

[33Vortex]

Frankly I am questioning if the rules were followed even. ImADot participated also in the event thus I must question his post above. I don't want to ban CMs from having fun but if it impairs their impartial function as admins then what is there to do?

The earliest recorded loss I've found, yet not awarded to anyone so could be a crash???
oHUSKERo
22:07:09 Departed from Field #123 in a Ju 87D-3
22:10:24 Was shot down by (crashed).

Next to go down was.
tripleS
22:04:56 Departed from Field #101 in a Ju 87D-3
22:26:40 Was shot down by and captured.

The last LW upper was.
SIRB
22:09:18 Departed from Field #123 in a Ju 87D-3

The last RAF upper was from the same squad (~~~THE UNFORGIVEN~~~) as plissken, clearly after combat was joined if the above is correct.
RELIC
22:23:25 Departed from Field #46 in a Hurricane Mk I

ZZZ_NO_SQUAD
RandallJ
22:19:03 Departed from Field #35 in a Spitfire Mk I

162ndFG\"Purple*Hearts\"
WyteNyte
22:16:49 Departed from Field #64 in a Spitfire Mk I

So if the logs show correctly, it is OK for the RAF to up after combat is joined, but not for the LW. If this is correct someone did wrong and explanation is due. Or is this acceptable policy?  

If the first loss is incorrect and and the first loss was at 22:26:40 the decision to deny Stampf to rejoin can be questioned. If the first loss is correct there are RAF players who SHOULD have been grounded. So something is not right here, CMs get to pick which one and what policy you are enforcing here. Or are the logs rubbish altogether?

 

[pops57]

Your research does raise some questions. To be clear 33Vortex, My backside was one your group was covering. You guys did an outstanding job as we landed most of our bombers! 

[33Vortex]

There is another possibility, that the above two first recorded Luftwaffe losses were from auto-ack and thus irrelevant. Which leaves us with a potentially even later time for combat joined. (???)

Your research does raise some questions. To be clear 33Vortex, My backside was one your group was covering. You guys did an outstanding job as we landed most of our bombers! 

Thankyou pops57, we did what we could do to keep you clear. Me and Zambelli chased two spits to your formation, and as you came into tag range a flight of hurris appeared above and then the world turned upside down for a while. I am grateful for not having taken friendly fire from the bomber gunners, that's very cool headed in that type of situation if you ask me. It was very close range fighting.