P-63 KingCobra......again

[Vraciu]

Tinfoil hats and anecdotes aren't evidence. There's a REASON HTC has built its flight model around the hard numbers of the flight manuals and technical specs, and not pilot anecdotes and hearsay.

You've been asked to provide verified, documented, AUTHENTICATED PROOF of the claim. Put up or shut up.

http://www.airpages.ru/uk/p63_2.shtml

The P-63 deployed to Moscow with the 29th Air Regiment, May 1944.   The 17th and 821st Regiments had them in the same area by August. Dozens of Soviet pilots admited to using it against the Germans.  Numerous German pilots reported possible P-63 encounters.  All this combined is proof enough for anyone with a brain.

We have P-63s in markings of squadrons used against Germany.  Come on Mr. Skinner, explain that one.   Were they just sitting in the rear as squadron hacks?   

You think nearly 2500 P-63s sat on the sidelines from mid-1944 on?   Ha!

It was DOCUMENTED to have been used against the Japanese.

It was used in combat.   Many people want it.  If you don't that's your business. 

Your hostility is unwarranted.  (Redacted.)

[Saxman]

http://www.airpages.ru/uk/p63_2.shtml

Deployed to Moscow with the 29th Regiment, May 1944.  17th and 821st had them in the same area by August. Dozens of Soviet pilots admited to using it against the Germans.  Numerous German pilots reported possible P-63 encounters.  All this combined is proof enough for anyone with a brain.

Where are the combat records? Serial numbers? German pilot reports amount to very little without ACTUAL corroborating records. The first time American pilots engaged Ki-61s they reported them as Bf-109s. The A6M3 wasn't recognized as a Zero at all when it was first engaged. All of your evidence amounts to this:



The P-63 has no business being added so long as we're missing:

F4F-3
TBD
SB2C
B6N
D4Y
Ki-44
Ki-45
Ki-100
J2M
Beaufighter
B-17F
B-24D
B-25J
G.55
Pretty much ANY Italian bomber

[Vraciu]

Where are the combat records? Serial numbers? German pilot reports amount to very little without ACTUAL corroborating records. The first time American pilots engaged Ki-61s they reported them as Bf-109s. The A6M3 wasn't recognized as a Zero at all when it was first engaged. All of your evidence amounts to this:

Bilge.

Bilge.

Bilge.

Ad nauseum.

Serial numbers?   Lol


"Records" in wartime are rather subjective and prone to error.   Just look at any loss report comparison. 

Unit deployments of the P-63 by the Soviets are well known AND documented--in Western Russia. From Moscow WESTWARD.  THAT'S TOWARD GERMANY for the compass challenged. The Russians had cause to fudge regarding their use in combat in the West.    Anyone who thinks they weren't used against the Germans is dreaming in technicolor. 


Welcome to my ignore list, Sassman.    (Redacted.)  I can find all the unwarranted venom I need on 200.  Poof.

[Krupinski]

Serial numbers?   Lol


"Records" in wartime are rather subjective and prone to error.   Just look at any loss report comparison. 

Unit deployments of the zip-63 by the Spviets are well known AND documented--in Western Russia.  The Russians had cause to fudge regrading their use in combat in the West.    Anyone who thinks they weren't used against the Germans is dreaming in technicolor. 


Welcome to my ignore list, Sassman.    (Redacted.)  I can find all the unwarranted venom I need on 200.  Poof.

There's no point in arguing with the BBS warriors like him, man, they've literally brainwashed themselves to think everything they say coincides with HTC's beliefs.

[Saxman]

There's no point in arguing with the BBS warriors like him, man, they've literally brainwashed themselves to think everything they say coincides with HTC's beliefs.

No, the people you can't reason with are the ones who use THIS:



as their evidence.

The Russians had cause to fudge regrading their use in combat in the West.    Anyone who thinks they weren't used against the Germans is dreaming in technicolor. 

I DARE you to try to use that type of argument in a research paper or scientific journal, and expect to be taken seriously. "Oh, we don't have any actual documents that proves this, but some guys said so despite the fact that the ACTUAL hard facts available to us say otherwise, so it MUST be true!" It's CONJECTURE, pure and simple.

[Vraciu]

There's no point in arguing with the BBS warriors like him, man, they've literally brainwashed themselves to think everything they say coincides with HTC's beliefs.

Thanks for the support, Krup.  Was starting to question my sanity.  Well not really.    Amazing how people can turn on you over a minor difference of opinion, though.  Wow. 

Any way... Glad to see someone else gets it.  Thanks again, sir.   Cheerio.   

[BuckShot]

Why does every wish list thread for a specific plane turn into people saying "not before we get x, y, and ?"

Whirlwind. Yes
F4F-3. No, already have something like it
TBD. No, same as above
SB2C.  Yes!
B6N. No, already have something like it
D4Y. No. Just because
Ki-44.  Yes
Ki-45. Yes
Ki-100. Yes
J2M. Yes
Beaufighter. No, have mosquito, better plane
B-17F why? Already have 17
B-24D. Already have 24
B-25J. Already have 2 25s
G.55. Yes
P-63. No. Already have two p-39s

The sarcasm detector just pegged

[Oldman731]

The P-63 deployed to Moscow with the 29th Air Regiment, May 1944.   The 17th and 821st Regiments had them in the same area by August. Dozens of Soviet pilots admited to using it against the Germans.  Numerous German pilots reported possible P-63 encounters.  All this combined is proof enough for anyone with a brain.

Just FWIW, your source doesn't say all that.  It appears that the first 63s were deployed as air defense units in the Moscow area in 1944, but in very small numbers and not otherwise operational.  Moscow, in 1944, of course was not near the fighting.  The article discusses the serious concerns the Bolsheviks had about the 63's stability and performance.  Real numbers of the plane weren't received until much later ("In the spring of 1945 P-63 began arriving in the combat units of air defense"), and they were sent to the Far East because the writing was on the wall in the West by then.

Now there may be sources that back up your claim that P-63s fought the Germans, I don't know, but this isn't one of them.

- Oldman of the Brainless Bunch

[Saxman]

Just FWIW, your source doesn't say all that.  It appears that the first 63s were deployed as air defense units in the Moscow area in 1944, but in very small numbers and not otherwise operational.  Moscow, in 1944, of course was not near the fighting.  The article discusses the serious concerns the Bolsheviks had about the 63's stability and performance.  Real numbers of the plane weren't received until much later ("In the spring of 1945 P-63 began arriving in the combat units of air defense"), and they were sent to the Far East because the writing was on the wall in the West by then.

Now there may be sources that back up your claim that P-63s fought the Germans, I don't know, but this isn't one of them.

- Oldman of the Brainless Bunch

Stop poking holes in his logic, he'll only Ignore you, too.

[Krupinski]

Poor Saxman, this seems to be the only place where he can feel like he's superior over other people. 

[caldera]

Why does every wish list thread for a specific plane turn into people saying "not before we get x, y, and ?"

Whirlwind. Yes
F4F-3. No, already have something like it
TBD. No, same as above
SB2C.  Yes!
B6N. No, already have something like it
D4Y. No. Just because
Ki-44.  Yes
Ki-45. Yes
Ki-100. Yes
J2M. Yes
Beaufighter. No, have mosquito, better plane
B-17F why? Already have 17
B-24D. Already have 24
B-25J. Already have 2 25s
G.55. Yes
P-63. No. Already have two p-39s

The sarcasm detector just pegged

"We already have something like it"   Can be used to reject any future plane addition.   

And no F4F3 but a SB2C?   We "already have something like it" in the SBD. 
And the G.55 is an awful lot like the C.205, at least according to your logic.

Maybe we can clean house of 3/4 of the planes, to get rid of all the redundancy.

[Karnak]

What do we have that is like the TBD?  The B5N?  What do we have that is like the B6N?  The TBM-3?

[PJ_Godzilla]

Not until... we get the ki-44 Shoki.  The Pacific scenarios get a little unbalanced and Shoki should combine nicely with the lightly-armed Oscars to make for a toxic phoulbrau.

Otherwise, while I get the point regarding the pedigree of the "evidence" around P-63 involvement, I've never let that stand in the way of a "yes please".

I like, seriously, the idea of an analog to an "anything goes" NFL: an arena where a lot of late-war prototype/iffy stuff is allowed. I think the real trick there would be getting any decent performance data. P-63 clearly passed well beyond proto and into full production. The questionable part regards the service history.

[caldera]

What do we have that is like the TBD?  The B5N?  What do we have that is like the B6N?  The TBM-3?

All we really need is the P-51, B-17 and the Tiger.   

[BuckShot]

Guys, you must have missed the first and last lines of my last post.

The "logic" I used is the same used by those that poo-poo wishlist threads with other non related planes.

I want all of those planes, including the P-63. Using Ta-152 "logic," we should get the 63. It shot down less than the Ta but more were built.