Where are the High Alt Fighter Jocks?

[shoresroad]

I had an epiphany the other day.  Actually, another player brought it to my attention.  As some of you know I started a new squad several weeks ago with the idea of flying bomber groups with escort fighters into the Strats to create high altitude furballs (I love a realistic bomber interception defended by escorts).

And we've had some good turnouts for the pickup missions, except we're having problems retaining escorts for future missions.  We throw a big darbar and attract LOTS of interceptors.  We have had some great furballs where the bomber formations are knocking down the 163's and 262's that blow by the escorts (one mission we shot down three 163's and one 262).  Our escorts seem to fair as well as the prop interceptors (giving as good as they take) and we're bringing about 50% of everybody home (bomber and escort pilots).

The interceptors are always there when we throw a big darbar (I assume for the potential bomber nom-noms), but many of our escorts won't go back the next night or later that week.  We had one excellent squad escort us one night and I thought they did great, but when I asked the CO if they wanted to do it again several nights later he gave me this candid answer: "Can't fight up there!  Planes handle completely differently.  I can hunt bombers up there, but dog fighting is a different story.  We were struggling.  We'll work on it and have another go at it some time in the future."

"Up there" was 25k.

Maybe we just haven't found the right guys yet.  But the question also occurred to me "are fighter skills in AH so tuned to lower alts that they aren't used to their plane's handling in the thinner air?"  I'm not asking this sarcastically, but as an honest question.  The CO's response took me by surprise because they are Pony and P-47 guys with a number of Top 100 and 200 pilots in their squad.  They are good sticks and those planes were designed to fight up there.

Am I looking for the 3 horned unicorn in looking for escort pilots with 25k dog fighting skills?  I'm a mediocre fighter pilot and admit is it more difficult up there, but I just assumed the full time fighter guys in the high alt design planes would have dog fighting wired up there.

[uptown]

We usually always fly at 15K or above. We would like to keep it at 20 and above, but rarely do we find any bad guys that high. And most of the time if we do encounter the enemy the first thing he does is dive to the deck   If high flying escort is what you want the 56th FG would love to help you out. We're itching for some high alt action but can't seem to get any most of the time. We fly on the Rook side.  


Saturday afternoons there's usually anywhere from 7 to 15 of us on.

[Zacherof]

We usually always fly at 15K or above but rarely do we find any bad guys that high. And most of the time if we do encounter the enemy the first thing he does is dive to the deck  If high aly escort is what you want the 56th FG would love to help you out. We're itching for some high alt action but can't seem to get any most of the time. We fly on the Rook side. 

the reason we can't find hi alt fighters is the rooks are the hi-alt sticks

[LCADolby]

While I have been flying for the Rooks I have done a number of escort missions across the map, flying at high altitudes will be alien to many MA players that have not gone through FSOs or scenarios where high alt combat is guaranteed. The MA is typically, (fighter on fighter) from the deck to 15k, trying to fight over that is a rarity for many players.

Zach has a point though; Rooks, over the ages, have become synonymous with flying higher than any other AcesHigh country, might be worth rotating away from the bishops to get what you want.

[Chalenge]

It's up to you of course, Badger, but some of the best high alt missions I have ever been on was in escort of DHBG against rooks. Rooks usually do not defend, and even when they do it's a poor defense (it used to be much better just a few years ago). Knits will hit you with everything they have.

[Wiley]

But the question also occurred to me "are fighter skills in AH so tuned to lower alts that they aren't used to their plane's handling in the thinner air?"

In my experience, yes.  The vast majority of people flop like fish if they get pressed over 20k.  I think that is pretty much the largest contributor to the "see co-alt bandit and split-S 12k feet under him" school of ACM.  The fight most are comfortable with is low.  Most are only at alt hoping to have the E advantage on whatever they may find.  To be fair, it is a different style of fighting up there altogether.

Heh... one of the things that made me laugh the hardest in this game was a squaddie and I were cruising at 22k or so headed into a bunch of red dots on dar.  He called out a "pony on the deck".  I saw the bandit and did some rough trigonometry by the angle he was at...  "Buddy, he's at least 10k."

Wiley.

[matt]

We usually always fly at 15K or above. We would like to keep it at 20 and above, but rarely do we find any bad guys that high. And most of the time if we do encounter the enemy the first thing he does is dive to the deck   If high flying escort is what you want the 56th FG would love to help you out. We're itching for some high alt action but can't seem to get any most of the time. We fly on the Rook side.  


Saturday afternoons there's usually anywhere from 7 to 15 of us on.

Flying at that alt might as well bring back trinity map......

[katanaso]

I think a lot of folks, myself included, would rather spend the time flying to a fight and engaging at medium alts rather than spend the extra 10 minutes climbing to 20K-25K to get to the same fight.

Yes, most folks don't know how to fly and fight at those high alts.  It's very apparent in scenarios, where you'll have fighters going to 30K and expecting to maneuver like they were at 10K.

[Arlo]

I think a lot of folks, myself included, would rather spend the time flying to a fight and engaging at medium alts rather than spend the extra 10 minutes climbing to 20K-25K to get to the same fight.

Yes, most folks don't know how to fly and fight at those high alts.  It's very apparent in scenarios, where you'll have fighters going to 30K and expecting to maneuver like they were at 10K.

Both personality types can co-exist in the MA. If they are flying in the MA to hone skill and bide time until the next event then some high alt encounters (specifically escort vs. intercept) couldn't hurt. If they are not into events and want the most engagements possible when logged on, then high alt to them would be considered a waste of time. Honestly, each could scratch the others backs by occasionally jumping the fence to give some numbers to one experience or the other (for however long they can stand it).

[icepac]

I find a lot of guys don't feel the need to look above the horizon when they fly at 30k.

It's great when you can turn off your engines and dive from 40k on them.

[RedBull1]

When I played I was quite the High-Alt fighter, if I do say so myself. I regularly broke 8k when climbing out, I know, I know... I'm a bit of an alt tard but, hey!

[Zoney]

Badger, you've flown with me and already know I live for the high altitude stuff.  If you are not Knights then you have my pity.  If you are Knights then please let me know anytime you are going to to a High alt buff run.  I will be there everytime.

I don't mind fighting on the deck, I'm just not going to start there.     

[surfinn]

I personally don't mind wasting a hour and a half escorting bombers but that's me I have the time to do it. I think your running into the, I only have three hours to play and do i want to waste half that time for 2 kills or do i want to fly at 10k with 5 times the amount of fights.  Oh and on a side note its always funny as hell to me when I encounter someone at 25k in my FM2 and the first thing they do is dive for the deck

[whiteman]

Was in a "fight" between 25-30k in F4U-1A against a Spit16, wasn't exactly graceful. Scenarios are the only time I've been up that high for extended fights.

[bustr]

POTW realized along time ago combat 20k and above was not an individual affair because of the slim margins related to MACH numbers and stall in the thinner air. Just like the 56th knows you need a team to control the airspace and account for the eventual high alt mistakes that happen during maneuvering. I learned high alt combat from the old 56th under Nomde and passed that on to the POTW.

The higher you go, the slower you maneuver closer to the edge of a stall and need all the WEP you have. Then your wingman having learned to stay just inside of 2000yds from you becomes your salvation. Because he is just close enough to kill the con who just floundered with you into your stall mistake. Errr...sorry, your brilliant last moment high alt ACM strategy.