M36 Tank Destroyer

[33Vortex]

Yes, and? Do you know which books Butcher have read, or are you two the same person? Your point eludes me.

[Butcher]

Yes, and? Do you know which books Butcher have read, or are you two the same person? Your point eludes me.

Most of my books (memoirs) rather are in russian, they are not widely public because frankly in USA who cares about what the russians did? Dmitriy Loza wrote memoirs a while back detailing his time in a Sherman M4, its a pretty good book named Commanding the Red Army's Sherman Tanks.
He doesn't praise or hate the tank, I actually am quite fond of some other russian memoirs, one detailing a gunner in the M4, he was much impressed with the tank VS russian design (the optics were terrible on whatever he trained on, I cant quite make out what he is referring too). I can't read russian although I do try to translate as much as I can get. Before he passed away in 1976, he wished to drive in a tank once again - however he wasn't specific on saying what tank he is referring too.

http://english.battlefield.ru/dmitriy-loza.html
He says there were some short barrel shermans, I'm guessing not enough to make an accurate judgement about it (that or blown up shermans won't tell stories either)

Soviet archives are to be taken with a grain of salt, its neither misinforming or lying - however consider that Soviets were victorious the winners always write the history books. However I have rarely came across "fictional" information thats down right misleading.
The biggest problem with the Soviets Archives is there is barely little information to cross reference it too, unlike american or british information you can cross it and get an accurate "picture".

Consider this, the average ground trooper doesn't have ALL the information we have - he is given a rifle and thrown into battle, of course front line reports can be misleading - one of the famous cases comes from the marine air wing at Midway island - some of the TRAINED pilots claimed Zeros were flying faster then 450mph and turned endless while out climbing. Misleading? not entirely, the pilots had no experience flying against the Zero or any information to go on - however it was not long after this the Thach Weave was invented and the zero invisibility wore off.

[33Vortex]

Yes indeed, the "Fog of War" as well as combat stress and fatigue are always important factors. Interesting info thanks for sharing and yes I agree with your opinion of the Soviet archives. The example I brought up of the 'Prochorovka Ridge' myth was more of a political propaganda nature than anything else. It was a way to cover up the huge losses taken by the soviets during the action of deliberate counterattack against the 48th PzKorps (iirc). They knew very well where the southern armored spearhead was and threw their armored reserves at it. The Prochorovka battle was only one in a series of armored clashes that wore down German tank forces. It was not the gigantic epic tank battle at point-blank range.

Overall, the Ostfront was characterized by German tactical excellence coupled with inept strategic planning pitted against well thought out and executed Soviet strategic planning coupled with inept tactical command and execution.

Anyway, let's get back on topic. :-)

[RngFndr]

Well, it fits the game requirements.. And I'd like to see the 90mm in the game too..
I'd like to see the 100mm soviet too..
Love to see the Japanese twin 5"x40 too, ..

[Karnak]

Love to see the Japanese twin 5"x40 too, ..

The what?

[RngFndr]

Japanese didn't have much to crow about in the weapons department..
But the twin 5in x 40caliber self powered gunmount was the exception..

Oh I guess you are sayin how does that relate to an M36..
Because to me, it wouldn't add much to the game, other that bringing in the 90mm..
Cool, lots of other heavy rifle caliber artillery that I like too.. Like the twin 5in x 40..

[Chalenge]

I wouldn't be too sure. It would allow the defeat of Jagdpanthers on the ridge 4k out without too much trouble.

[SmokinLoon]

I wonder if peeps who wish for certain things research the good and the not so good, and the relevance their specific item played in WWII.

At 2000 yards, the US 90mm could defeat roughly 73mm of armor with its AP shot, and 87mm with its APC shot.  Nothing to jump up and down about, really.  Compare that to the King Tiger, Tiger, Panther, and even the Panzer IV H.  Compare that to the Firefly's 17 Pdr gun.  See my point?  For whatever reason the Pershing and Jackson are thought of as being wonder tanks, and they certainly were not.  Patton would have taken 1000's of M18's and M4/76mm long before he would have allowed for the slower firing and slower moving heavies.

I'm not seeing much being added that would be "new", unlike the Su-100, Panzer III (and all the variants that can come with the Panzer III chassis), or even the Cromwell (35mph fast firing 75mm), or Crusader (2 Pdr, 6 Pdr, 75mm, and AA variants available).


 

[Butcher]

I wonder if peeps who wish for certain things research the good and the not so good, and the relevance their specific item played in WWII.

At 2000 yards, the US 90mm could defeat roughly 73mm of armor with its AP shot, and 87mm with its APC shot.  Nothing to jump up and down about, really.  Compare that to the King Tiger, Tiger, Panther, and even the Panzer IV H.  Compare that to the Firefly's 17 Pdr gun.  See my point?  For whatever reason the Pershing and Jackson are thought of as being wonder tanks, and they certainly were not.  Patton would have taken 1000's of M18's and M4/76mm long before he would have allowed for the slower firing and slower moving heavies.

I'm not seeing much being added that would be "new", unlike the Su-100, Panzer III (and all the variants that can come with the Panzer III chassis), or even the Cromwell (35mph fast firing 75mm), or Crusader (2 Pdr, 6 Pdr, 75mm, and AA variants available).

One thing you are missing is Aces High ground war doesn't exceed over 1400 yards in 90% of situations. Very FEW maps I have ever tanked I shot beyond 1400 yards total unless I am trying to flank a spawn, when you consider it 2000 yards at 73mm from the side works quite well for ANY tank.

Problem is from the front, I dont know any aces high ground war that actually even ranges 1400 yards total, the normal for me has always been under 1200 yards. However I used to teach in the TA, to flank and ride up a hull, where you can get an overall evaluation of the playing field and range in at 1400-1800 yards where most people have never even shot (making ranging even harder, assuming someone rangings on your side of a mountain).

One thing to remember is, consider anything under 1400 yards, if the M36 doesnt hit its dead - and with aircraft strafing its turret is out as well. The M18 is perked already, consider the M36 as well.
I am not knocking the M36, I would love to see it added along with the Puma scout car - eventually.

[Karnak]

Japanese didn't have much to crow about in the weapons department..
But the twin 5in x 40caliber self powered gunmount was the exception..

Oh I guess you are sayin how does that relate to an M36..
Because to me, it wouldn't add much to the game, other that bringing in the 90mm..
Cool, lots of other heavy rifle caliber artillery that I like too.. Like the twin 5in x 40..

Ah.

From what I've read the Japanese 100mm (3.9") 65 caliber dual purpose twin mount used on the Akizuki class DDs was their best AA gun.
http://www.combinedfleet.com/100_65.htm

[Chalenge]

At 2000 yards, the US 90mm could defeat roughly 73mm of armor with its AP shot, and 87mm with its APC shot. 

I'm just curious where you get your information. The data I found in the first search online indicates no figure for APC at 2000m, 105mm for APCBC, and 95mm for APC M77 both at 2000m. And then there's the AVAP that punches through 154mm. Inside of 1500m it's one shot one kill on any German armor.

More important (to me) is the maximum effective range of 19k, which I am curious how HTC would handle that (given visual range problems).

[33Vortex]

PzIII would be great! 

Brummbär perhaps for those town sieges? 
Oh, and that would be the same chassis as the Jagdtiger btw. Perhaps that would tilt the game a bit too much. Still awesome platform. 

[RngFndr]

Ah.

From what I've read the Japanese 100mm (3.9") 65 caliber dual purpose twin mount used on the Akizuki class DDs was their best AA gun.
http://www.combinedfleet.com/100_65.htm

But the twin 5in x 40 was on a nifty self powered mount that could be dropped anywhere, on land or on ships..
Little 2 stroke motor powered a generator, that gave it full powered function.. No external power required..
They welded them to their ships anywhere they would fit.. Rabaul had 100 of them, they were deadly till they ran out of ammo in 44.. That's when Rabaul became a Milkrun for Noobs..

The 3.9 never had that kind of production numbers, only 169 built..

www.navweaps.com is a good one too.. (careful, so much info you can get lost in it, lol)

[Rich46yo]

The only thing that makes sense, or should, is tanks/aircraft  that support additional interest to the game, provide for a growing user base, and satisfy inclusion requirements. From that you can easily see that the M36 is justifiable on all counts. I also want to emphasize that 1,400 of them were built during the war. The roof kit seen in Arlo's image was not used during the war.

I agree. While its fascinating to imagine sea planes and tri-motor I-talian bombers I dont see much sense at this point in modeling stuff people wont use. Or even worse, wont increase interest in the game. A SU-100 or M36 WILL increase interest cause they a BFG and BFGs are fun. By the same token the TU-2 would be a good addition cause not only does it fill a hole in the set but it will be very capable, being fast, with a good bomb load, and having many versions of it used.

A perfect world would see all the niche planes. I almost never fly anything under 15 eny. But this isnt a perfect world.

[33Vortex]

I agree. While its fascinating to imagine sea planes and tri-motor I-talian bombers I dont see much sense at this point in modeling stuff people wont use. Or even worse, wont increase interest in the game. A SU-100 or M36 WILL increase interest cause they a BFG and BFGs are fun.

Not to disregard the rest of your post, but... just to point out that there's more to AH than the MA.

The above is the MA mindset, while there's a completely different perspective on what 'draws a crowd' and that's the FSO mindset. For FSOs, there are several models of great historical significance that aren't BFGs and a prime example is the He111 that was recently added. How many fly that pig in the MA? It has a place though because the BoB events have been hurting because of its absence. Similarly there's a range of VVS bombers (for example) that would find their niche in the historical FSO mindset.