I want to fire 50mm and 2 20mm cannons at the same time on a me 410

[bustr]

It's so the German armorers had standards in the field. Duplicate the pattern in full size on a banner or wood sign, set it out to 50m or 100m and fire a few test rounds. Then set the Revi visierlinie. Same with all participants in WW2. The more complex you made day to day weapons systems, the increased chances of human failure in maintaining or using them.

Rule of thumb with German speaking blogs. As members come and go over the years, what stands for accepted wisdom changes. I translated for FW, 109 and Me 410 a few years back on several blogs. At the time battery over load from the weapon systems charge up was accepted. Their resident guru's change along with their current accepted wisdom. Learned that the hard way researching the Revi 16N.

You can jump into the middle of it here by asking about what version of the FW 190-A8 we really have.

Target harmonizing.

[Rino]

     I wonder how much all the recoil of all those cannons firing effects the flying characteristics of one
of those German gunboats.  Sort of like the Gau-8 slowing the A-10 on an extended burst.  If nothing
else, it had to shake the heck out of the plane and possibly even degrade the sight picture and burst
accuracy.

[77fib77]

     I wonder how much all the recoil of all those cannons firing effects the flying characteristics of one
of those German gunboats.  Sort of like the Gau-8 slowing the A-10 on an extended burst.  If nothing
else, it had to shake the heck out of the plane and possibly even degrade the sight picture and burst
accuracy.

You look around on the internet the recoil of the 50 mm is bad.  It was a sniping weapon at range. On PBS they said a long of burst of 50s on a p47 would slow it by 50 mph.

[Krusty]

There was a Korean Saber pilot chasing a MiG-15 and it was slowly getting away. He didn't want to fire because he knew as soon as he did, his guns' gas and recoil would slown him down by 30mph, thus giving the MiG even MORE of a lead in his escape. In the end he futilely sprayed a long burst then turned around (the MiG was returning to restricted airpsace for the Saber) and went home.

Some of these guns had a LOT of backward force on them. However, that's also tied to RATE of fire, not so much size of the round. The .50cals are shooting 800+ rounds per minute, amplifying a tiny burst of gas that much more. The BK5 has a larger round and a larger "puff" of gass pushing backwards, but it's only one puff. It's not doing 800 rpm (no doubt if it could achieve such a rate, it would fly the entire plane backwards 200mph!).

[Karnak]

Get an Me262 up to max speed, bring up  the E6B and then empty the guns and see what it does to your speed.

[Charge]

"Some of these guns had a LOT of backward force on them. However, that's also tied to RATE of fire, not so much size of the round. The .50cals are shooting 800+ rounds per minute, amplifying a tiny burst of gas that much more. The BK5 has a larger round and a larger "puff" of gass pushing backwards, but it's only one puff. It's not doing 800 rpm (no doubt if it could achieve such a rate, it would fly the entire plane backwards 200mph!).

Some? The force in which the rounds are forced forward a similar force affects backwards and then some. If you calculate the energy of, say, a 5 second burst the energy you create on the target is only half of the total energy you create, so the other half is what pushes you backwards as you fire. What is the muzzle energy of 5 seconds of .50s on 800rpm and what is the muzzle energy of 4 shots of 50mm?

If we presume that the HE round is the same as in field gun version we have 550m/s and 1,78kg /round for 50mm and 856m/s and 46 grams AP for .50Cal.

If my calculations are correct that makes 1,076,900 J for 50mm and 224,707 for a single .50Cal for a 5 sec burst. If its a P47 that makes it 1,797,656 J of total kinetic energy divided on the target AND at the shooter. And the expanding gases add to the recoil towards the shooter... I'm not sure what is the kinetic energy of the aircraft but I guess you will notice the deceleration when you pull the trigger. The lighter the plane the worse the  effect.

-C+

[morfiend]

 IIRC the 50 mm has a MV around 800 to 900 m/s and not 550 m/s.




   

[bustr]

Operation system: Pneumatically assisted long recoil.
 Barrel lenght :2700 mm.
 Total lenght :3790 mm.
 Weight: 520 kg.
 Rate of fire: 45-50 dpm
 Ammunition: 50mm x 420R (KwK 39, Pak 3)

Description of the 5 cm M-granate (M-shell):

 The projectile exists of a thin walled drawn steel body, rolled inward at the top.
 It is fuzed with the AZ39 (Impact fuze 39), either the ZZ-20 (Zerlege Zunder / Self destruct fuze 20).
 The projectile is filled with 335 grams of cast HTA (Hexogen, TNT, Aluminium), and has a 12 grams –cylinder shaped booster charge of NP10 (Nitropenta with 10% wax) below the detonator.
 The tracer at the base of the projectile burns dimmed for the first 0,25 seconds (prevents blinding of pilot), followed by 3,3 seconds of bright tracer.

 Functioning of the AZ-39 impact fuze:
 The AZ-39 is an all aluminium fuze. A slider prevents the firing pin (red) from moving downward. The slider is held in place by two radial placed pins that fall in recesses in the side of the slider. These two pins are held inward by a bronze clock spring. Upon firing these two pins are thrown outward (centrifugal force), releasing the slider. A steel ball is placed in an axial hole that is placed under a 2 degrees outward angle to the top of the fuze. When fired, the negative acceleration keeps the ball in the lower position, as soon as the velocity is constant, the centrifugal force will make the ball creep upward until it falls into the hole in the slider. As the slider becomes heavier on this side it will pull the outward, releasing the firing pin. On impact the firing pin is driven into the upper firing cap (green) of the VC-70 detonator.
 This detonator has a delay mechanism build in, delaying the explosion with 10 cm of projectile flight path. This ensures the projectile will explode inside the target instead of “on contact”. When the firing pin (red) hits the firing cap (green) the flame travels through the small channel into the ring formed chamber where it has to pass through another small channel to reach the lower firing cap (yellow). This will activate the detonator (white)

 The shellcase used is the 50 x 420R, the same as used in the KwK/39. It is electrically ignited by means of the C/22 igniter. The shellcase is a copper clad steel shellcase.
 The powder charge exists of 830 grams Digl.R.P. 310 x ø2,5 x ø1,0 (hole) powder sticks and a booster charge of 10 grams NZ.Man. Nd.P 1,5 x 1,5, placed below the main powder charge.
 The powder sticks are placed in a silk bag and held together with to silk wires.
 The maximal barrel pressure is 2400 Bar (At)

 Vo. of the projectile : 920 mtrs/sec
 Weight of complete cartridge : 3500 plm. 40 grams
 Weight of projectile : 1520 plm. 20 grams
 Length of the complete cartridge : 606 mm
 Length of the projectile : 226,5 mm

[Charge]

So, a 10 ton Me410 has the kinetic energy of about 95,000,000J at 500km/h (310mph). With the aerial HE the energy for a single round is 643,264 J, x 4 is 2,573,056 J.

So it would roughly take 37 rounds to bring a firing 410 to a standstill in mid-air (providing the engines would stop providing thrust).

-C+

[Krusty]

only if all fired at the same time

[Franz Von Werra]

If the amo is hitting the same spot, the heat build up would be fierce, doing even more damage than the sum of each individual round.

At least it doesn't fire like the 190a8, 30mm going with the 20mm cannons.

The interface treats the 410s 50mm like a bomb, so 'fire all weapons 'N' key won't fire it.

To say that the plane couldn't fire all of the weapons sounds like trash to me.
Game seriously needs a third fire button for planes with more than two weapon sets.

And even if this was proven, why must it be implemented to handicapt the plane?
If so, take amo counters out of all planes except 109s and 190s.
Add a low fuel light to 109.
Only the 190 had auto mixture levers, all other planes had to deal with mixtue controling.
lots of planes had micro management constant contious steps to do...

[Karnak]

The interface treats the 410s 50mm like a bomb, so 'fire all weapons 'N' key won't fire it.

Really?  Interesting.  I don't think I've tried to fire it along with the other guns.

To say that the plane couldn't fire all of the weapons sounds like trash to me.
Game seriously needs a third fire button for planes with more than two weapon sets.

This would need to be carefully thought out in implementation, but it could be done.

Main thing I want on the Me410 is the ability to fire just the 30mm cannons.

And even if this was proven, why must it be implemented to handicapt the plane?

I prefer historical accuracy whenever possible.  I know HTC makes concessions for playability reasons.  The one place I really agree with them on that is the units of measurement all being the same in the different aircraft even though the Germans, Russians, Japanese army and Italians used meters and kilometers per hour and the Japanese navy used nautical miles it is much easier to communicate when we're all using the same measurements.  I don't care if they had picked the German numbers or the American numbers so long as they are all the same.

If so, take amo counters out of all planes except 109s and 190s.

I'd like this.  Didn't the Me262 and C.20x also have this feature?

Add a low fuel light to 109.

Sure, but that is pretty minor.

Only the 190 had auto mixture levers, all other planes had to deal with mixtue controling.
lots of planes had micro management constant contious steps to do...

If AH had player managed mixture I'd absolutely support this, but as it does not it is moot.  Personally I think the BMW powered Fw190s had the best thought out cockpits of any WWII aircraft, designed with fighting and making the pilot more effective at fighting in mind.


While we're at it, I'll toss the old cutoff valve for Bf109 and Spitfire radiators damage control as a wish again.

[Krusty]

This game doesn't play out like historical fights. In historic combat the majority of allied fighter pilots never saw the enemy. They rarely fired their guns, and they may have only fired their guns ONCE during any combat engagement, often expending all their ammo in 1 long burst trying to walk fire into a target.

That doesn't track with Aces High's multiple engagements system, where you can engage and disengage so many times in a single sortie you get bored.

Because of this gameplay, we need accurate fuel meters and ammo counters, so that we know how much we have left and can make informed decisions on whether we are going to stay and fight or run home.


P.S. Many other planes had some form of ammo counter as well. Even some that didn't loaded 5 tracers in a row every 100 rounds to let the pilot count out as he's firing.

[Karnak]

I never had a problem tracking my Spit's ammo in European Air War.  After using a fighter for a bit you just get used to it.

As to the 109's fuel light, that is minor.  Other planes would still have the fuel gauges, just not the added alert.