I want to fire 50mm and 2 20mm cannons at the same time on a me 410

[77fib77]

I want over  powering strafing on the 410 or over powering buff hunting.  I would like to be able to fire all guns at once.  The standard issue 2 20mm and the add on 50mm can not be fired at the same time.

[jeffdn]

That is not going to happen, for several reasons.

• it is not historically accurate
• they have wildly different trajectories
• if you're shooting something with one, you are missing with the other

[minke]

If you aren't getting a kill with one, you won't get a kill with both.

[RotBaron]

Not at 30 yds, right before you auger you'd be getting hits with both.


I told him this the other night, guess he didn't believe me or understand. What I meant was what the two previous posters replied. The trajectories are so vastly different that you can not aim both at once. If you are seeing hits on an enemy with one of the weapons, you are missing with the other...

[Saxman]

If you aren't getting a kill with one, you won't get a kill with both.

Wasn't it Jimmy Thach who said something like that?

[77fib77]

You cant set the convergence? If you straffing a town does it matter? Or a ship from a dive bomb angle?  At 100 yds against a B17 is the trajectory issue as huge as you make it? 

[bustr]

The OP is right and wrong.

The control block for the Knupplegrif Knopf circuits don't rule this out. But, the charging circuit may, because the BK5 was charged and fired as a separate circuit due to battery burn out issues. When you look through manuals for these very heavy caliber guns, they are fired alone as the primary selected weapon.

If the OP is willing to spend the time, he can find the Me410 with BK5 armorers manual on the internet. Translate it to English, and read the charging and firing order of weapons. I will venture Hitech did. 

[77fib77]

The OP is right and wrong.

The control block for the Knupplegrif Knopf circuits don't rule this out. But, the charging circuit may, because the BK5 was charged and fired as a separate circuit due to battery burn out issues. When you look through manuals for these very heavy caliber guns, they are fired alone as the primary selected weapon.

If the OP is willing to spend the time, he can find the Me410 with BK5 armorers manual on the internet. Translate it to English, and read the charging and firing order of weapons. I will venture Hitech did. 

   Do you care to site your statement that battery burn out was an issue or is the burden of proof only on me?

[RotBaron]

While I don't know the trajectory at 100yds exactly, at that distance there would still be some differentiation between the two weapons. However at 100yds I'd imagine both would be getting hits as a buff is a very large target at 100yds.

Bustr has noticed the thread and is much more qualified to answer as he has facts, where I have assumptions based off of my experience.

Last thing I will say, the only moment I see what you're asking for as applicable is if you have learned to be a great 410 stick. Where you have the ability to slash in on buffs 6 and center yourself there for just a moment at ~100yds and then pull away before the guns bear down on you. If you can do this, then yes I can see where you'd be ripping them apart in just a couple of bursts on each. The 410 is in my experience a tough plane to maneuver and damage wise not very tough. I know I'm in the majority, where we come up on buffs, let the a2a rockets fly, stay at ~1.0 and just blast away from there.

[bustr]

   Do you care to site your statement that battery burn out was an issue or is the burden of proof only on me?

The battery burn out was warned about during weapon charging with German fighters. That was why charging weapon banks required you to wait between charging systems. Get a few manuals and translate them. Many of us already have gone to that trouble. Join our merry band. Have you even bothered to read the circuit diagrams for the primary and add on package weapon systems in the 410? You must have missed a post here previously about the Knupplegriff and Knopf wiring related to the charging and firing circuits.

All of the below can take you up to 3 years of research if you get hooked.

You can google Knupplegriff and work subsequent searches from key words out from there.
Goto Scribd for manuals.
Check Lone Sentry.
Search for manuals like D. (Luft) T. 2410 A-1 / U4 Teil 8A (OR) B-2/Wa/U1 Beiheft 1
Use free internet German to English translators after you find manuals.
Translate German, Italian, Russian WW2 forums dedicated to German aircraft technology. Amazing what they take for granted as common knowledge that we often fight over in English only forums. Waffle!! "Big Cocker"......
Or even buy the manuals, many are available online from about $8.00 to $400.00.

Register at WWW.GERMANLUFTWAFFE.com. They sell instruments, gunsights, control stick grips(Knupplegriff), manuals. Have a forum, and used to allow you to download them for free at one time.

But at least if you are going to wish for a change to a system that was not available in the real aircraft. Look it up yourself. I admit Hitech doesn't always follow things exactly historic. Like the Knopf wirings and weapon firing orders in some of our German fighter versions. 

[jeffdn]

Besides the other things we've already mentioned, the 50mm fires incredibly slowly. Karnak, Bustr, I need you guys to confirm on this, as I'm not 100%, but wouldn't the damage doled out, especially with the same trajectory (meaning simultaneous hits at any range and convergence... if you're hitting, you're hitting), make the 6x20mm package far more effective for strafing anyway?

[Karnak]

My reference says the BK5 fired 45 rounds per minute.  The MG151/20 fires 700-750 rounds per minute, so I used 725 for my calculations.

In AH a single MG151/20 hit to a structure does 3.54lbs of damage.  A single BK5 hit does 54.68lbs of damage.

Assuming ammo wasn't a limiting factor, sustained fire for one minute gives us this total damage:

BK5: 2460.6lbs
MG151/20: 2566.5lbs
One BK5 and two MG151/20s: 7593.6lbs
Six MG151/20s: 15399lbs

Clearly for sheer straffing ability the six MG151/20s dish it out fastest.

[jeffdn]

[...snip...]

One BK5 and two MG151/20s: 7593.6lbs
Six MG151/20s: 15399lbs

Clearly for sheer straffing ability the six MG151/20s dish it out fastest.

Just as I thought. Thanks, Karnak!

[SmokinLoon]

I'm glad someone already mentioned the 6/20mm option.  Leave the 50mm in the hanger unless you're doing one thing: hunting bombers.  Otherwise, thing thing is very heavy and seriously hinders maneuverability.  The 410 is full of a lot of win, make sure you experiment with the different packages.  Keep the Me410 light(er) and it handles much better.

Oh, and if you want to bust a hanger may I suggest the dual 250kg SAP (or AP?) bombs? My memory fails me at the moment, but I think if they dont bring down the hanger alone all it takes is for those two bombs and a quick burst of dual 20mm and dual 13mm and "puuf" down goes the hanger.  The hordz might impress me sometime if they ever did it that way instead of using the easy mode P51/P38 method.

[77fib77]

The battery burn out was warned about during weapon charging with German fighters. That was why charging weapon banks required you to wait between charging systems. Get a few manuals and translate them. Many of us already have gone to that trouble. Join our merry band. Have you even bothered to read the circuit diagrams for the primary and add on package weapon systems in the 410? You must have missed a post here previously about the Knupplegriff and Knopf wiring related to the charging and firing circuits.

All of the below can take you up to 3 years of research if you get hooked.

You can google Knupplegriff and work subsequent searches from key words out from there.
Goto Scribd for manuals.
Check Lone Sentry.
Search for manuals like D. (Luft) T. 2410 A-1 / U4 Teil 8A (OR) B-2/Wa/U1 Beiheft 1
Use free internet German to English translators after you find manuals.
Translate German, Italian, Russian WW2 forums dedicated to German aircraft technology. Amazing what they take for granted as common knowledge that we often fight over in English only forums. Waffle!! "Big Cocker"......
Or even buy the manuals, many are available online from about $8.00 to $400.00.

Register at WWW.GERMANLUFTWAFFE.com. They sell instruments, gunsights, control stick grips(Knupplegriff), manuals. Have a forum, and used to allow you to download them for free at one time.

But at least if you are going to wish for a change to a system that was not available in the real aircraft. Look it up yourself. I admit Hitech doesn't always follow things exactly historic. Like the Knopf wirings and weapon firing orders in some of our German fighter versions. 

Ok im looking into it.  I found the U4 manual in pdf form, thanks for making it easy to cut, paste and search for it. 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/100752950/Messerschmitt-Me-410-A-1-U4-Flugzeug-Handbuch-Schusswaffenanlage-mit-BK-5-cm

I couldn't find a warning about battery life or charging order, doesn't mean its not there, I am still messing with translating it.  If you look at the end of the file does it look like that there are tables telling one how to adjust all three weapons to converge at the same spot for different ranges?  I posted the question up on the germanluftwaffe site to see what the native speakers think.