The K4 and gun pods

[morfiend]

I've been trying to find a photo of a K4 with a 20mm just to prove a case it could be added, however I cannot find any photos.

 Butch,you'd have to find factory pix because they were only maybe a dozen preproduction units that Willy made to impress the bigwigs.

  Like I said I've spent hours looking for a pic of the K4 with either the 20 mm hub or the gondies. Unfortunately because of all the subassembly and the war state I don't think you will ever see a picture of either.


   Of course I could be wrong,afterall I'm a senile twit.....


  Someone needs their mouth washed with soap,or do they still do that these days...



   

[Zacherof]

I've been trying to find a photo of a K4 with a 20mm just to prove a case it could be added, however I cannot find any photos.

Can our G6 get the mk-108 first?


As for the G10 vs G14 did the G10 have the same 13mm nose "humps"?

and btw K-14 would be way better than the K6
And did any production model 109's ever try the mk-103 instead of the 108?

[Butcher]

Butch,you'd have to find factory pix because they were only maybe a dozen preproduction units that Willy made to impress the bigwigs.

  Like I said I've spent hours looking for a pic of the K4 with either the 20 mm hub or the gondies. Unfortunately because of all the subassembly and the war state I don't think you will ever see a picture of either.
   

Yeah, its hard to find photos of P-63s in combat over Berlin too for the same reason.

[Butcher]

Can our G6 get the mk-108 first?


As for the G10 vs G14 did the G10 have the same 13mm nose "humps"?

and btw K-14 would be way better than the K6
And did any production model 109's ever try the mk-103 instead of the 108?

The Mk103 was basically to big and to heavy to mount, far as I know it was used in very limited aircraft but not a 109.

[morfiend]

Can our G6 get the mk-108 first?


As for the G10 vs G14 did the G10 have the same 13mm nose "humps"?

and btw K-14 would be way better than the K6
And did any production model 109's ever try the mk-103 instead of the 108?

  Zac,

  Our G6 needs to have an AS motor to go with the 30mm hub! As for the G10,it was made of leftover and repaired G6 and G14's that they put the motor from the K4 in so ya they had the 13mm humps.The whole cowl area on the K4 was redesigned to be more aero.


   As I said the K4 is the only K series 109 that made production,the K6 and K14 were paper airplanes and some mock ups.


   

[morfiend]

Since this isn't the first time, yes, yes you are.


 
Not a good enough stick to train.

  Please find and quote those rules.   I have never found any but I might not have been around as long as you either.






   

[LCADolby]

I see your rules, and present the P51B with the field mod Malcolm hood

[Tank-Ace]

  Please find and quote those rules.   I have never found any but I might not have been around as long as you either.

   

Entirely serious question: do you know what de facto means?

[morfiend]

Entirely serious question: do you know what de facto means?

  That would depend on it's use,as an adverb or as an adjective,  really seriously!




   



   

[MiloMorai]

And did any production model 109's ever try the mk-103 instead of the 108?

There was a modified MK103 that was suppose to be installed in the 109 but it was problem ridden and never was tried (afaik).

[Krusty]

No 109s EVER used 30mm gunpods. I suspect you're getting this from IL2 and its various mod upgrades, which ALWAYS put what-if schemes in the loadout options.

K-4s were actually built with MG151/20s but they never reached the troops that way. They were systematically removed (on every last plane) at the depot level before deployment to actual units.

There were some on-paper plans for later models. K-6s, and K-14s, etc, that had more weaponry inside the wings -- inside, like the E-4s MG/FF, rather than underneath like gunpods -- but these were never realized before the war was over.

[Gman]

Back in early Aces High days, our G6 DID have the 30mm as an option.  Our G10 also had hub 20mm and 20mm gondola options too, if I`m remembering correctly.  It had the hub 20mm for sure, but I`m fairly sure we could add gondolas to the G10 as well.

[Krusty]

I see your rules, and present the P51B with the field mod Malcolm hood

The malcolm hood was not a field modification. It was NAA engineers that designed it. It wasn't just a spitfire canopy bolted on. It was a custom built part that NAA issued to replace canopies at the depot level. It actually took a lot of effort to install.

From: http://www.mustangsmustangs.us/thehangar/index.php?PHPSESSID=sfvdf5rtbq58jkso2shkdfcq30&topic=846.msg3649#msg3649

The history of the Malcolm hood on the P-51 is full of misconceptions.  First, it is not an adaption of a (much smaller) Spitfire hood. They are totally different airplanes, with different dimensions and cross sections. The blown hood was merely inspired by that produced for the Spitfire. RAF test records indicate that the engineering work for the blown Mustang hood was done in the UK by North American Aviation engineers (i.e., it was an NAA engineered design, not a British one, thus factory approved and "official" as opposed to some cobbled up field mod.)  Once a prototype was tested (on a Mustang I), production was turned over to Malcolm Ltd. to refine it for production, and produce the kits. The engineering required a lot of internal airframe modifications, and the stresses and aerodynamics were all considered. The Malcolm hood kit took about 135 manhours to install. It wasn't simply an unbolt the old one and bolt on the new one affair. Kits were issued at both depot and squadron levels.  New canopy side rails had to built up, the runners for the canopy installed, the internal structure for supporting the hood rails had to be added, the hand cranking mechanism had to be installed and a new jettison mechanism fitted.

[Krusty]

Back in early Aces High days, our G6 DID have the 30mm as an option.  Our G10 also had hub 20mm and 20mm gondola options too, if I`m remembering correctly.  It had the hub 20mm for sure, but I`m fairly sure we could add gondolas to the G10 as well.

2 points:

Our previous 109G-6 was set up more as a later-war mixup, with a 30mm option but without the later-war engine power. So it was a bit of a Frankenstein. It also wasn't very useful in scenarios and setups and planesets that needed the early variant of a G-6. The 30mm threw it all out of balance.

Second: We never EVER had a G-10. That's the issue with your second comment. We always had a K-4. The performance specs were always K-4. K-4s and G-10s were not identical. The G-10s had a LOT of variation in performance. Some were literally no better than late model G-6s from which they were converted. The G-10s were to hedge bets in case the K-4 took too long, but then the G-10 ended up taking just as long and they both came out at the same time, with the G-10 being inferior to the K-4. It didn't even fill a planeset hole, since both airframes went operational in the same month of the same year. The best of the best of the best, the most pristine examples, in the best case scenarios, were still 10+ mph slower than a K-4 in similar loadout conditions. This, however, is not representative of actual war-time performance, and is a "clean" test on a perfect machine. Most were much slower. What we had was a K-4 with extra guns options. It was called a G-10 to justify the guns options. Why? Because it was a first-gen fighter when this game was new, and there were a very small number of planes in the game. It was called a G10 and given those guns options to simply get more variety from a game that needed more time to grow.

Now that we have grown, grown, and grown some more, we have long-since outlived the need to lie about what variant we had. The guns options were removed, the name was changed back to what it always was (K-4) and we are better off for it. Nor do we need a "real" G-10 to be added to the lineup. Instead, what would be MOST beneficial would be a G-6/AS, which has all the loadout options of a later G-6 (and what our old "G-10" used to have) but with the high-alt supercharger setup for better performance in the thinner air.

[Tank-Ace]

A G-10 would still be nice.