Complex Engine Management

[earl1937]

Well there is a way to do this without making it to hard on the nonpilots, that dont understand about manifold pressure, mixture, and RPM.  I doubt that it will be viable but it would be simpler than having to run with complex settings.  Jut make it so that if a pilot runs his engine at 100% for more than 7 minutes there is either a loss of power, or the engine craters, if he or she is in WEP for more than 3 minutes, the engine has a catastrophic failure.  I do like the idea of complex engine management but I also believe it would run some of the noobs off. 

I to would like to see more complex engine management, but I understand why it is not a requirement in order to enjoy this game. I have included a videro by "Climber", flying a P-51D and the terrain is set in China. It is a good video, but Climber is not a pilot in real life, so a couple of comments you might raise your eyebrows at, but overall, he did a great job in showing what has to been accomplished in order to fly the P-51! He also has a video on two different Spitfires and a Boeing 377 "Stratocruiser".

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6CZeaqz7ae0bVMwVWRGZkt2UGM/edit?usp=sharing

There is a lot to be said for "immersion" in the game and while a lot of people in here only want to dogfight, shoot down airplanes and just generally satisfy their desire to someday become a real pilot, there are also a lot people who would like to see more "realism" in flying the aircraft in this game.

[ink]

the AVA should be turned into a full "realism" arena....

full engine management...no icons.....friendly collisions....and fire....(once air born)

changes in radar.....no dots on map.....rolling plane sets that change every 2/3 days

objectives that need to be complete....missions that have AI that fill the spots that a person would fill if not enough people are in mission....

have missions that can be chosen that will get what is required done....if the missions fail, you don't get any points or perks at all.


sounds like fun, but I think it would be a ghost town.

[guncrasher]

And this won't? It would be even LESS realistic than what we already have.

I'm reinforcing this because I think some people are missing this part of it: MAKE IT A CLIPBOARD OPTION. It comes with a risk if you don't follow the procedures, but you may get a small advantage out of it as well. Think of it like overclocking your CPU: You can forget about it and leave it be with no risk (Complex Management Off). Or you can fiddle with the settings (Complex Management On). If you do it right you get a bit of extra power. Or you can completely screw up and melt it and your motherboard.

that would be cool for those who want it, however with one exception.  you cant change it in mid flight.  have it set in the hangar.   if you decide to use it you better know that you cant change it 1/2 a fight just to avoid damaging an engine you over "managed".

semp

[Tank-Ace]

While I would love to turn my 109E-4 essentially into an E-7, it seems like an awful lot of work for an optional feature.

They would have to code fuel mixtures, cowl flaps, etc as variables dependent on altitude, manifold pressure, etc. Then they would have to code tolerances (probably different for each engine), which would probably be arbitrary values, since theres no real data on this type of thing, etc.

All that for an optional feature?

[Saxman]

that would be cool for those who want it, however with one exception.  you cant change it in mid flight.  have it set in the hangar.   if you decide to use it you better know that you cant change it 1/2 a fight just to avoid damaging an engine you over "managed".

semp

Yeah. I think most of the other clipboard options (tracers, stall limiter, gunsights, etc.) already do that. If you change the option mid-flight it doesn't go into effect until you tower out and launch a fresh sortie.

While I would love to turn my 109E-4 essentially into an E-7, it seems like an awful lot of work for an optional feature.

They would have to code fuel mixtures, cowl flaps, etc as variables dependent on altitude, manifold pressure, etc. Then they would have to code tolerances (probably different for each engine), which would probably be arbitrary values, since theres no real data on this type of thing, etc.

All that for an optional feature?

You could say the exact same thing about it in almost ANY combat sim where it's available.

[Babalonian]

Ok, so my other thread has derailed into a slap fight over icons, so I'm separating this out into a new one.

A thought for complex engine management:

Most of the "Nays" come from people who believe that this would be a significant turn-off to new players, which probably isn't an inaccurate assessment. More to manage means more to worry about outside of just shooting stuff down. However if you think about it, there's already a couple aspects where AH provides similar assistance for players by simplifying the game:

Auto Takeoffs, Stall Limiter, Combat Trim, and Engine Governor.

Players who can't quite manage getting their machine off the ground can turn on auto-takeoffs, while Stall Limiter protect them from spins they might not be able to get out of. Combat Trim makes it easier to quickly adjust aircraft trim to keep it level for gunnery purposes, while the Engine Governor stops the engines on WWI machines from over-revving in a dive and blowing out.

All of them (well, except Auto Takeoff) also give players who DON'T use them a slight advantage, whether by giving them better control over their aircraft's flight characteristics, letting them push deeper into a stall to get a few extra DPS or shave a few extra feet off the turn, or pushing a little extra speed out of a dive.

So why not make complex engine management the same way: A clipboard option that can be turned on or off. Players who want to use it can, and those who don't won't have to worry about it. Maybe a player might want to risk running his cowl flaps or radiator closed at high power settings to reduce drag for a couple extra mph. Or maybe squeeze a little extra range or power out of their engine by tweaking their fuel mixture at the risk of starving it or detonation.

Pop-quiz:
Throttle lever does?
Prop lever does?
Mixture lever does?
Boost pumps do?
Engine primer?
Starter switch?
Mags switch?
Preoiler?


And you want these systems (adn more) included in your casual entertainment?  Not that manual starting and engine management isn't fun, but after doing it 20-30 times a night... not to mention if we shut down on the rearm pad for a piss break and try to hotstart some engines only a minute or two later, just lol.


No.  Not only is it a hazard to new players, it's dangerous in that the more experienced will have a huge advantage over everyone else.  Currently without it and the WEP-timer system helps keep a more even playing field while also making it noob-friendly.  Not to mention hardware support/availability issues.  I don't have a 3-slider throttle quadrant or joystick, everyone will need to buy or make one of these eventualy to have the best control.  Then all the planes will need some remodeling in the cockpit so more than just the throttle lever moves when you change that setting.

[Arlo]

Pop-quiz:
Throttle lever does? Throttles
Prop lever does? Pitches
Mixture lever does? Riches or leans.
Boost pumps do? Boosts - vroom.
Engine primer? Primes to start.
Starter switch? Starts - contact.
Mags switch? Magnetos. Not the X-man villian.
Preoiler? Lubricates. The wife and I ... oh ... nevermind.

You're right. I'd like to think all this mundane engine-sitting is what my virtual cartoon pilot does on instinct while I, as a player, drink a beer.

[Karnak]

I think any consideration of engine management should start with a recognition that the only things for consideration should be the things that are changed in flight.  Anything that is done as part of the start up should be off the table as it is just needless button pushing and can reasonably be thought of as being rolled into the pressing of the E key to start the engine.

[Saxman]

No.  Not only is it a hazard to new players, it's dangerous in that the more experienced will have a huge advantage over everyone else.  Currently without it and the WEP-timer system helps keep a more even playing field while also making it noob-friendly.

Why does everyone keep skipping the "optional" part? Don't want to use it, don't turn it on. Just expect to not quite get as much out of your aircraft as those who use it in the same manner of Stall Limiter and the Engine Governor.

[Karnak]

Why does everyone keep skipping the "optional" part? Don't want to use it, don't turn it on. Just expect to not quite get as much out of your aircraft as those who use it in the same manner of Stall Limiter and the Engine Governor.

Keep in mind that for this to work the current performance would need to be the result of "complex engine management" being enabled.  By default everything would need to perform a little worse than it does now when automatic engine management is selected.

Why?

Because the gains to be had are not even.  I can't really think of anything that a Mossie pilot could do, enginewise, to eek out a bit more performance. All you can do is set higher boost, but that is controlled by the WEP system.  The Mossie driver doesn't have cowl flaps to fiddle with.  I don't even think its radiators open and close.

I don't care to have F4U's gain performance on me just because they have a checkbox for complex engine management that actually does something for them.  Hence, F4Us with complex engine management should perform as they do now and the ones without it checked should lose a few MPH and a little climb.

[Saxman]

Keep in mind that for this to work the current performance would need to be the result of "complex engine management" being enabled.  By default everything would need to perform a little worse than it does now when automatic engine management is selected.

Why?

Because the gains to be had are not even.  I can't really think of anything that a Mossie pilot could do, enginewise, to eek out a bit more performance. All you can do is set higher boost, but that is controlled by the WEP system.  The Mossie driver doesn't have cowl flaps to fiddle with.  I don't even think its radiators open and close.

I don't care to have F4U's gain performance on me just because they have a checkbox for complex engine management that actually does something for them.  Hence, F4Us with complex engine management should perform as they do now and the ones without it checked should lose a few MPH and a little climb.

Oh sure, considerations for how to actually implement the system would should be made. I'm just not sure where people keep seeing that I want this to be made mandatory and not a player choice like the Stall Limiter and Engine Governor.

[ink]

the reason engine management is not in AH, is Hitech wanted a "game" that was about "Combat" above all else...

he said something along those lines


this says it all.


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[titanic3]

Do people not read the "optional" part or something?

[Karnak]

Oh sure, considerations for how to actually implement the system would should be made. I'm just not sure where people keep seeing that I want this to be made mandatory and not a player choice like the Stall Limiter and Engine Governor.

If it nets even 1mph of speed over not having it selected it would be mandatory for me.

Not saying it would be mandatory for everybody, but it would be for me.

[Saxman]

Do people not read the "optional" part or something?

Maybe I should just usebig letters like ink is to get my point across that the wish is to make it optional.