this is going to cause grief im sure but...

[hazed-]

after playing in CT as a P47 and finding it quite easy to stay on 190's 6 and loop fighting with 109s and getting 3 kills in 1 sortie i switched back to 190a5 and flew against them.
I was chased by 1 P47 which pulled around on my tail and followed every move i made.I saw him getting very untidy as he struggled to get on me,I continued to do smooth banking dives and to my mind his wild yawing and pitching should have bled E like crazy but he stayed on me the whole time.
another P47 managed to keep me and a 109 in a low alt turning/looping fight busy for good 5 minutes.I had E adv at start and it was drained away.
Ive got to say it again.I dont feel this is accurate.From every account ive read it is NOT  capable of this sort of thing.
I know you will all now quote the bloody NASCAR(?) tests or whatever but this sort of thing doesnt match what i have seen on interveiws with the pilots that actually flew them.
I got that old 'ANNOYED' feeling back which i took time off to get rid of.and whilst i at first could let it go and just enjoy AH now the old feelings back.
PLEASE someone explain how this P47 could match a 190a5.lets see the numbers that prove it? wingloads etc please?

otherwise im simply going to get pissed off yet again(what with the engine 1 ping thing too)

i can only hope its how it was but i very much doubt it from what ive read.

[streakeagle]

The P-47 is an underrated aircraft. I have an account somewhere of a friendly fight between a co-alt, co-speed P-47 and a Spitfire. It was a long fight, but the P-47 won! He used the vertical and his roll rate of course: e-fight.

The only reason I never cared much for P-47s was that I always thought Mustangs were far prettier. Only in recent years have I come to appreciate the beauty of P-47s and P-38s, not to mention that they were great fighters too.

I am not a FW190 expert by any means (though I have read a lot about them too: know thy enemy). But I suspect that the 190 is not nearly as good a plane as some would believe. As an e-fighter with a high roll rate, it clearly outclassed the Spit V, but its wings were just too small for its size and weight nor did they benefit from technology such as laminar flow airfoils or an elliptical shape. Also, its engine did not work well at the altitudes it had to use to intercept bombers. But despite all these disadvantages, down low, it should dominate a P-47 which was designed to be most efficient at very high altitudes.

I don't know what to say. I know HTC has used every available statistic and physics principal to make the best model they can. I also know that despite the general accuracy of their modeling technique, specific traits on specific planes are outright wrong (I am thinking of the P-38 and the F6F).

The crux of the problem is that accurate performance data for most WWII planes simply does not exist. It would be so much easier to model them if each plane had accurate specific excess power, instantaneous g, and sustained g curves in terms of speed vs alt. Even that data doesn't reveal the control quirks of an aircraft.

Maybe HTC should use their profits (if they are making any after halving their fee  ) to rent WWII planes and evaluate them. Better yet, maybe instead of playing flight sims, I should be renting the WWII planes   If I had the money, I would have a P-51 or F-4U for sure... though F-4 Phantoms are becoming available...

Must admit, I never thought I would see a thread claiming the P-47 was overmodeled though, or is it that the FW190 is undermodeled (seen a lot of those threads  ).

[-ammo-]

We went through this in the CT. I have known you a long while hazed and I think alot of what you have to say. You know I am a p-47 nut. IMO the p-47's we have are undermodeled. There has been discussion after discussion about this and it wont be hard for you to look back and find all the data you want..right here in these forums.

I was the the P-47 pilot that hazed mentions. Now I have a film of the fight, and if those that would like to see this I shall email it in zipped form. If anything, it shows that the 50 cal's in AH are NOT all that some notable LW types claim  they are :)I had an energy advantage from the beginning. only in the end did I make a mistake bad enough to cause me to go defensive and egress. But the wild erratic manuevers you speak of..I dont see that.

I dont know what you expect the P-47 to perform like? I dont understand where you feel it is so outclassed by the 190A5. The 190 has alot of strengths, it's roll, acceleration and low altitude speed are superior to the p-47. But never have I ever seen anything in wrioting attributing it to having a decent turn rate. The P-47 on the other hand has a significant instant turn, while its sustained turn is terrible..yes the D11 is NO TURNER as I have heard others say. No way there is any truth to that.

<S>

respectfull as always,

[Buzzbait]

S! Hazed

I was on the CT tonight.  I flew a 190A5 to start to even up the odds since the Germans were outnumbered.

I took off, and immediately spotted a very high contact over my base.  After some taunting, it came down.  It was a P-47.  (Ammo I later learned)  He had at least 5k on me to play with.

He made several passes at me, which I found quite easy to evade by either a low G turn or a roll under into a dive and zoom.  He had too much speed.  Each time, he extended and zoomed.  After about 4 of these, he had lost a lot of his alt. advantage.  In my opinion I would have been able to start going after him soon.

Then I spotted 2 more high contacts inbound.  On his last pass, after evading, instead of pointing my nose back towards him, I kept going towards the contacts.  I wanted to get closer to them to see what they were, and also to get closer to some friendly ack.  One of the contacts was a P-47.  When I looked back for Ammo he was nowhere to be seen.  I made the mistake of thinking he had gone out of icon range and looked back for the contacts ahead.  Next thing I know I'm shot full of .50 cals and missing a wing.  I'm not sure what happened, but I suspect he went into a very high zoom and came down vertically on me.

In any case the reason I died was because I got distracted and lost sight, not that my plane was incapable of maneuvering with him.

I re-upped again, and saw it was 3 56th FG P-47's over the base.  They were focusing on two German planes lower.  I climbed parellel to the furball, got up to the altitude of the highest P-47, got up a bit of speed and came in on them.  The highest P-47 spotted me coming and went HO with me.  I zoomed after the HO and was able to get alt. on him.  The P-47 zoomed as well but was lower E. and I started a lag pursuit spiral climb after it, and I was gaining.  Ammo realized his disadvantage, rolled left and dove with me in pursuit.  I had no problem staying on his tail.  In fact I had to roll off the throttle a bit.  I had few good chances, popped off a couple bursts, but unfortunately missed.  When I built up a bit too much speed and was starting to loose roll quickness and turn, I pulled up into a zoom and postitioned myself to come down on him again.  He zoomed as soon as he saw this, but my zoom was superior and I had more E when I finished and I was on him again after a few more maneuvers.  He rolled and dove again.  It was obvious to me that I was going to be able to kill him if I continued to force him down and maintained my E and alt advantage.  

If wasn't chased off by his pals.

Which of course happened. (Those 56th FG boys stick together) The two P-47's which were lower to start, came in on my tail.  (Don't know what the heck the other two Germans were doing) So I evaded them with a roll, then zoomed into a low G spiral turn to the left.  They followed, but were not able to match my zoom.  They were about D800 behind and below and not able to get their noses up enough.  I was definitely out spiraling them.

At that point another P-47 zoomed up about D700 to the right of me.  I think it was Ammo.  He come up slowly, very low E, just barely to my alt.  Instead of being smart and staying in the spiral, I rolled right and started a pursuit on the P-47 ahead.  Couldn't resist an easy target.  Stupid move.  I immediately realized the P-47's below now had an angle on me.  I rolled left again, but by that time they had both put their noses up and hosed the air around me.  Bingo, I'm dead again.  Sancho got the victory this time.

Now in this case, as far as I'm concerned, I had gained an advantage from a co-alt fight.  It was also obvious to me that the A5 was outclimbing the 47's.  I also had no problem turning and rolling with the P-47 except at 400+.  I only died because I made a dumb decision.

At that point I had to exit the CT to go attend to R.L.

Came back a couple hours later and found this time the Allies were outnumbered.  At one point it was 11-3. (Funny how those Huns don't switch sides to even things...   )

Decided to try a P-47, but figured I needed to get some serious altitude if I was going to survive with the odds.

Climbed to 25,000 ft.  Spotted a group of 5 Huns, avoided combat with my superior speed.  There was one contact which was higher so I climbed some more.  I was able to maintain 225-250mph IAS and climb to 30,000ft.  Got co-alt with the high contact.  It was a 109.  1,000ft below were 3 190's.  If there were only 190's I would have had a cakewalk.  I found I was able to actually loop up there if I let my speed build to 300.  The 190's were useless, I'd do a head to head with them, avoid a gun solution, loop and get 1,000ft advantage.  I'd get on their tails very easily.

Unfortunately the 109 was able to hang in with me in the climbs and zooms, although I was much faster and was able to evade it without any real problem.

Finally I took a chance on a run at a 190 which passed right below me.  Split S'd down on him, just missed lining up my shot, then I followed him down a bit too much and gave the rest of them Alt on me.  I had to dive away to avoid being caught by a 190.  I RTB'd, landed and re-upped in a Spit V and base hugged.  (Had a great fight with 3 190's and a 109, got 3 kill credits and one to crash.   )

Anyway back to the P-47:

In my opinion the P-47 was superior to the 109's at 30,000 and completely outclassed the 190's.  Which is definitely what history tells us should be.

As far as low alt, in my opinion, the A5 is a better aircraft, although not in high speed maneuvers.

[Urchin]

Well, let me throw my two cents in here.  Hazed, I really don't know you at all, so I don't know how good of a stick you are.  Most, if not all of the JG9/54 guys were awesome sticks (or so it seemed when I first started).  

I'd like to think I'm a pretty good pilot.  I KNOW Frenchy is a great pilot.  We had a little fun in the DA one night (he basically spanked me like a red headed stepchild- but it was fun).  One fight in particular comes to mind.  I had been flying 190A8's against his P47D30, and he was handing me my bellybutton every single fight.  I jumped into the A5 and we flew a few.  

These were all at low level, typical of flight in the Main Arena (from what I've seen, the fights in the CT start higher, but still go to the deck eventually, so it is still applicable).  Since Frenchy is a great pilot, flying a great plane (it is really under-rated in my opinion, at least in AH), he would normally get on my 6 on the merge.

One fight he did this, I headed for the deck with him hard on my butt.  I actually made the deck, but since my 190 was not equipped with the option shovel package, I couldn't keep diving.  So I levelled out and made a HARD break turn to the left.  Unsurprisingly, he stuck with me through maybe 180 degrees of this- but when he tried to pull lead on me to shoot, he bled speed off.  Once we both got to around 200 mph, I whipped around on his 6 so fast he probably thought I was a zero.

So, I'll tell you how I fight P-47s when I'm in a 190A5.  Actually, I'll start by comparing the two's strengths and weaknesses, and if I get one wrong someone please correct me.  

190A5 strengths-

-Roll Rate- this is its single largest advantage over the P47.  Although I hear the P47s rollrate may actually be undermodelled in AH

-Turning ability at low speed- the 190A5 turns significantly better than the P47 at low speed.

-Firepower in a snapshot- It only takes one (or maybe two) good snapshots with the 20mm to kill the P47.  When Frenchy was fighting me, he needed 4 or 5 snapshots usually with the .50s

-sustained climb- I believe the 190A5 has an edge in sustained climb, especially at low level.

-low speed acceleration- from 200 to 300 mph the 190 accelerates better, after that it is similar I believe.

P47 strengths

-Zoom Climb-  The P47 will outzoom a 190A5, provided it is able to build up a lot of speed.

-Diving ability- The Jug accelerates faster in a dive.  

- High speed Turning (300+)- I *believe* the P47 can turn inside of a 190A5 at speeds above 300 mph.  I know it bleeds off speed a little faster in a turn, so thats the reasoning.

-Ammo Load- the thing is an arsenal... you can shoot if you are thinking about thinking you have a shot.

Areas where neither plane has an advantage

-Top speed (low level)- believe they are similar, one or the other may be a tiny bit faster.


Anyways- the fight is a fairly even match as far as "knifefighting" goes.  Whoever starts off with the advantage should win, all things being equal.  On a co-E fight, whoever performs the best on the merge will have a significant advantage.  I'd say if anything the 190 has a slight edge, because if the fight gets into a scissors or preferably a rolling scissors, you can use the P47s incredible dive against it by keeping your nose below the horizon as much as possible.  This will force the P47 out in front.

Anyways, here is what I, personally, do if a P47 bounces me.  Actually, I pretty much use the same "moves" if ANYTHING bounces me.  It really depends on how the attacker is coming in.  If he is coming from my low 6 with a significant speed advantage, I'll do a "flick and flee"- starting a turn to the high right, then rolling 180 and going back to the low left.  This will typically force an overshoot or rolling scissors if the bandit attempts to stay on my tail.  I'll also do a defensive barrel roll in that situation, whichever I start to do I stick with.  

If he is diving on me steeply, I typically pull up into the attack, then roll 180 and go for the snapshot as he continues out in front of the plane.  Sometimes they'll panic and break, thats even better for me because they've blown their speed advantage.

Anyway, in a 190A5 against the P47, here is what I'd recommend.  

- Get the fight as SLOW as you possibly can.  You accelerate better at low speed, so once you get an advantage you can keep it.

- Get the fight as LOW as you possibly can- this negates the P47s great diving ability, thus costing him his easiest way out if things go bad for him.

-Don't be afraid to pull a flat turn if both of you are going less than 250 mph or so.  He will be able to pull lead once or maybe twice, but he blows his speed by doing that, and then he is yours.

Anyways, that pretty much ends my advice, please do not think me presumptious if you already know to do all of this.  My intent was to help, not to say I am superior in any way.  

I really think that a P47 vs 190A5 fight comes down to pilot ability.  In that situation, I can say (and believe) that the best pilot won.  Especially if the was the P47- I honestly do think the 190A5 has an edge on the P47 in a one on one "knifefight".
However, if you are in the 190A5, the P47 is so close to the performance of your plane that if the pilot is as good as you are you will have a VERY tough time getting him off your tail once he latches on.  Just about the only way I think you can (besides forcing an overshoot) is to pull a hard flat turn and risk the P47 pulling lead on you.  The good news is he only gets to do it once, or maybe twice- the bad news is if he hits you you are toast  .  It is kind of like a 190 on a Spits tail- I can choose whether or not to risk my speed advantage by pulling lead and taking my ONE shot, but if it does't kill him then I'm up a certain creek without a paddle.

[Urchin]

Not sure if this adds anything to my arguement or if I'm just tooting my own horn (I'd like to think it is the first, but it is probably subconciously the second)- I'm 14 and 1 vs all P47s.  In the 190A5 I am 3 and 0 vs the D25, 4 and 0 vs the D30, and 3 and 0 vs. the D11.  

It is also my belief that the 3 handle almost EXACTLY the same (the D30 is just prettier than the other 2)- I've never noticed any of this "D-11 can outturn a SpitV on the deck" stuff.

[Buzzbait]

S! all

Here is a test which I have excerpted from a book called:  “P-47, Thunderbolt at War” by William N. Hess.

It is between a captured FW190A5 and a P-47D4 with Water Injection but no Paddle Blade prop.

The P-47D4 had combat load, the 190A5 had two loaded 20mm inner wing guns, and two loaded 7.92mm Mg’s in the cowling.  There were no outer guns on the 190.

The A5 was described as being:  “…in exceptional condition for a captured aircraft and developed 42 inches manifold pressure on takeoff.”

The pilot of the P-47 had 200 combat hours in P-40’s and 5 hours in the P-47.  The pilot of the 190 had 300 hours in twin engine aircraft and 500 hours in single engined planes, but had no combat experience.  He had 5 hours previously in the Test aircraft.

Four separate flights of 1 hour each were conducted.  All speeds reported are indicated airspeed.

>>>>>>>>>>>

Recorded Results

1) Acceleration

a) 210mph to 275mph at 2,000 ft.   The FW190 accelerated faster than the P-47 and gained approximately 200 yards during the acceleration.
b) 210-275mph at 5,000ft.  Results, same.
c) 200mph to full power at 5,000ft.  The FW190 accelerated faster than the P-47 initially and gained about 200 yards, but at a speed of 330mph the P-47 rapidly overtook the FW190 and gained about 2,000 yards very quickly and was still accelerating.  Water injection was used by the P-47.
d) 220mph to 300mph at 15,000ft.  Again the FW190 initially gained about 200 yards, but the P-47 quickly overtook it.  The FW high speed supercharger cut in automatically at this altitude, and this supercharger seemed to cut in at lower altitudes when in a speed in excess of 340mph was attained by diving.

2)     Climbing

a) 2,000 ft to 7,000ft, starting at 250mph.  Both airplanes were pulled up rapidly to the angle of maximum climb and held until an altitude of 8500 feet was reached.  The FW190 climbed faster than the P-47, though the first 1500 ft, but the P-47 quickly overtook it and steadily outclimbed it by 500 ft per minute.  The P-47 used water injection and slightly overheated, while the FW190 did not overheat.
b) 10,000 ft to 15,000ft, starting at 250mph.  Again the FW190 initially outclimbed the the P-47 through the first 1,000 ft, however the P-47 rapidly overtook and reached 15,000 ft while the FW190 was at 14,500ft.

3)  Diving

a) 10,000 ft to 3,000ft, starting at 250mph diving at an angle of 65 degrees with constant throttle setting.  The FW190 pulled away rapidly at the beginning, but the P-47 passed it at 3,000 feet wth a much greater speed and had a definitely better angle of pull-out.

4) Turning

a) Turning and handling in excess of 250mph.  The two airplanes alternately turned on each other’s tail, holding in the turns as tightly as possible and alternating the turns first left then right.  The P-47 easily out-turned the FW190 at 10,000 ft and had to throttle back in order to keep from overrunning the FW190.  The superiority of the P-47 in turning increased with altitude.  The  FW190 was very heavy in fore and aft control, vibrated excessively and tended to black out the pilot.
b) Turning and handling below 250mph.  Turns were made so rapidly that it was impossible for the airplanes to accelerate.  In making the usual rather flat turns in a horizontal plane, the FW190 was able to hang on its propellor and turn inside the P-47.  The FW190 was also able to accelerate suddenly and change to a more favourable position during the turn.   However, it was found the P-47 could get on the tail of the FW190 by making a figure 8 in a vertical plane.  In this maneuver, the P-47, which was being pursued by the FW190 in level flight, attempted to execute a series of climbs, slow turns, and dives which would end up with the position reversed and the P-47 on the tail of the FW190.  The maneuver started with a steep climbing turn to near stalling point, followed by a fall-off and fast dive   whch ended in a pullout and fast climbing sweep which again carried the plane up to the stall and fall-off point.   The P-47 built up more speed in the dive than the FW190 with the result that the Thunderbolt also climbed faster than the FW190 and also higher.  The P-47 pilot merely waited for the FW190 to reach its stalling point below him and turned very neatly on the tail of the falling away FW190.  With its much greater dive acceleration, the P-47 soon caught the FW190 in the second dive of this maneuver.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

It is interesting to note the Climbing Turn/Dive/Zoom technique described in the last paragraph is almost identical to a description Bob Johnson gave of a technique he used to defeat a FW190  in combat.

The test was done in Florida in 1943.  The Aircraft was originally captured by the British, then supplied to the Americans.  This model of A5 would be lighter than the standard model with two outer wing 20mm's.

[Urchin]

The sustained climb of the P47 is better than the A5?  That's odd- I've flown both (granted, the 190 mostly)- and I always thought the 190a5 climbed faster.  I guess it could be the result of the fuel load and whatnot I put in the P47.

Just checked the HTC page- It looks like the 190 climbs faster until around 7k or so, at which point the P47 climbs faster.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[Eagler]

at least it's better than fighting a bunch of nikis  

[eddiek]

From Urchin:  "P47 strengths

-Zoom Climb- The P47 will outzoom a 190A5, provided it is able to build up a lot of speed.

-Diving ability- The Jug accelerates faster in a dive."

No arguing what should happen, but last night in the CT, I got film of all that being reversed.
A 190 stayed with me in a dive from 21K to 10K, then as I started to zoom, thinking that with over 500TAS, I should be able to outzoom him, he outzooms me and I lose a flap.
Successful P-47 pilots, such as Gabreski and Johnson, all had comments about how they could outdive, outclimb (or zoom), and generally outrun the 190's they faced during the time they were in the ETO.
Now, I have been flying the Jug since it's inception in AH, and I have long said something ain't right.  
Would love it if someone could meet me in the TA or DA and we could test the planes side by side for dive (initial accel, pullout, and zoom), turning ability both directions and in spiral climbs, and acceleration per the 1943 test data mentioned in this thread.
Gabreski said one thing in his book that really caught my attention, and it was regarding the Spit and the Jug.  He flew both during the war, the Spit9 first, then the Jug.  He related the incredible dive the Jug had, and said about the Spit9 "the plane was everything I expected and more: light on the controls, fst climbing, and maneuverable.  The only thing the plane wouldn't do very well was dive.  The plane was just too light to come down very fast."  Try diving away from a Spit in a Jug in AH..... ain't gonna happen.
He also talked about an incident in which he got into it with 5 190's and escaped by making steep climbing turns.  Again, try that in AH.....
To the pilots in the CT last night, I offer my apologies.  After bagging a kill, and then the 190 sticking with me in that dive and then outzooming me, I looked at the numbers and said enough.  My attitude really was bad at that point, and being outnumbered 10-4 did not help it any.  Sorry if my comments offended anyone.
Just as an aside, while I have read Gabby's book, and am trying to get my hands on Bob Johnson's book to read it, in the end, all that will likely do is make me wish more for better modelling of the Jug.  However, as HiTech told me on the phone, he sees pilot accounts as the worst data sources to use.  Not gonna argue the point, as this is his game.  But can any of you Jug pilots even imagine the complaints that would be heard if a Jug was modelled like, say, Johnson's D-5?  Oh man!  Set up for combat, it is my belief that the Jug was the equal to anything the LW put in the air during 1943-44, as proven by history.  The key phrase there is "set up for combat", which the AH p-47's are not.

[Pepe]

My €0.02

I never used to fly jugs until our Squad met with 56th FG. I'm pratcising hard on the D-11, that I find (subjective perception here) it turns sensibly better than D-25 & D-30. I feel I am years away from what this ride can offer, but it's tricky to fly and, especially, requires discipline. All of my training is taken in the MA although I will be switching to CT starting tonight.

To cut a long story short: the more I fly her, the more I like her. Tons of ammo, great punch, excellent ballistics (light years ahead of German -mainly- ammo), and she can turn decently. Plus, she can stand a lot of punishment.

I fought Urching last night, I was in a D-11, he were in an A-5, if my memory suits me well. Nice fighting, but made short work of me, because the golden rule in a P-47 is stay high, stay fast. I aggree that with this plane setting, pilot quality makes the difference  

I aggree with Urchin analysis of P-47's pros and cons. I would only like to add one little advantage in the D-11. The right-offset gunsight allows easy deflection shots, especially on a right turning target. Sure it's weird at the beginning, but once you get used to it, it's great.

All in all, I find P-47 a most underrated plane.

Personally, I find FW's more difficult to fly.

Cheers,

Pepe

[Saintaw]

Hazed, it's not the bird, it's that Ammo guy's a real little devil when behind the wheel  

Ve vill shoot him promptly tonight!
(Hopes... )

<S!>

[Westy MOL]

D11 is underweight isn't it? Per Pyro it was one of the things he is or was looking at for fixes in 1.08.

 Anyway, I would be curious as to what altitude this all happened at. Up high (over 25k) the Jug would clobber the 190. Down lower I'd give the odds the 190 beating the P-47 untill you factor in the pilot and who had what experience in which bird.
 
p.s. AMMO. I'd love a copy of that film just to see how you work that Bolts magic  

(jugdriver@townisp.com)

 Westy

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

[Vermillion]

Like Westy said, lets not forget that the P47-D11 is slightly underweight.

But that said, it all depends on where the fight is taking place. If its up high, the P47 is definitely the better airplane.  The radial engine in the 190 craps out about 20k, while the 47 just keeps getting better and better respectively.

[Sancho]

Originally posted by Saintaw:
Hazed, it's not the bird, it's that Ammo guy's a real little devil when behind the wheel  

Yes he is a "devil of sorts".  

Also remember Hazed, the net and Aces High's flight path predicting can cause other planes to appear to move erraticly, jerkily, although on their end everything is smooth and you may look jerky.  Like when you watch another plane land from the tower it usually bounces up and down violently and sometimes goes a little underground, even though it was a smooth 3 point landing on the pilot's end.

<S>