NOT TROLLING JUST TRYING TO LEARN STUFF HERE... K?
Yeah yeah I'm sorry too if trolled... but I call it like I see it.....oooohhhkkaaay?
at least don't throw WILD accusations around!
and post bad pictures!
I only posted one video... pm me and i'll link it to you!
BACK TO BUSINESS OF SOLVING THIS DEBATE? So now from MiloMorai's list, there were about 600 SpitXVI's, combined total for both USA and England in force, in May of 1945?
Maybe they saw a bunch of combat and some got shot down? But ONLY 600 late war spits at end of war???
To explain away some possible confusion... DID THE SPIT 16 SEE COMBAT? (short answer... probably!) : P
Adolf Galland's Book, "first to the last"... (he says a lot of stuff, mostly blames Goering and Hitler, seems never himself though!)
At first, Werner Molders was in charge of all luft fighter planes but he was mostly on the Eastern front. Galland was in charge, under Molders, of the western front, but when Molders died in November 1941, Galland was then head of all fighters.
Things Galland said: (go see his book, I can't find my copy, read it years ago)...
1) When the allieds were bombing Germany, the decision was made to station the luft fighters mostly IN Germany to PROTECT Germany. Yes this was sacrificing just about anything in France. Ofcourse this is western front, eastern front had fighters on the front line the whole time.
2) Also, "Following the latest bomb craters" a chapter that he talks about moving the Luft fighters to protect the LAST target, which wouldn't be the NEXT target sooo "following the craters"... even stationed in Germany, it was only till later when the Radar was helping...
2.5) He even speaks of a specific time... reports of "enemy planes" which were actually the Luftwaffe fighters... The Luftwaffe fighters this day were actually SEARCHING FOR THEMSELVES heh...
When D-day happened, there is a poster I saw long ago, by Galland showing the Normandy beach "Even our own troops asked the obvious question "where is the luftwaffe.""
3) At this time, D-day, as planned, the Luft fighters stationed in Germany moved to west to forward preset luft airbases in France. But, they ran into enemy fighters along the way, and so they got diverted to all over, total chaos? And some of the bases were already freshly bombed, or capped by enemy fighters, or too many planes at a small airbase while not enough at a fully stocked larger airbase... Yes, after D-day the luft went back into France but didn't actually reach the coast too much?
4) For a lot of 1944', Galland was "taking 'remainder planes from all over and putting them into his private reserve - a LARGE stash air-wing (I forgot the squad name)... The pilots were trained extensively to intercept bombers, I think he had about 1000 fighters? (I can't find the book). Gallands idea was to try to basically decimate an entire allied-1000-bomber-raid. At one time, the usa was sending about 500 to 600 fighter planes with the 1000 bombers. Some of the USA high command was recommending upping it to 2 fighters per bomber, so 2000 fighters per 1000 bombers... When to use the 1000 luft fighters to try to kill the 1000 USA bombers?... delayed, delayed, delayed...
What actually happened INSTEAD was that HITLER took Galland's private reserve, the 1000(?) fighters, STOLE THEM, and used them in the January 1, 1945 battle to attack USA fighters ON THE GROUND AT BASES IN FRANCE, DURRING BLIZZARD CONDTIONS, hoping to catch the P-51's ON THE GROUND. They did alright but they lost most of their better pilots... un replaceable!
Do consider that Germany's aircraft production went up and up until around Dec 44 / jan 45... "cottage industry"... planes were built by components in 'cottages'...
example: we all heard of the 'ballbearing' raids, Regensburg? or was it Stuttgart? I forget... but yes allieds high command were surprised that there were still luft fighters late in the war. Flown by noobs though, especially after jan 1st 1945. Operation Bastonge / Bodenplate?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_BodenplatteLuft fighters stolen by Hitler from Galland!
The above thing about luft fighters mostly stationed in Germany, and on Russian front, and only few in france... combined with this:
With the old saying "A P-51 can't do what a Spitfire can, but a P-51 does what it does over Germany"...And "the bombers weren't safe until the long range escort... p-51"...The p-47's had tried to protect the b-17's and b-24's but they couldn't do it for the WHOLE ROUND TRIP... After the P-51 came out, P-47's became mostly ground attack or greeter planes escorting for a the way out and return?
So the P-51 arrived and... full round trip... then later on, they were cut loose to try to kill the fighters instead of just protect the bombers?
SOOOOO...
One has to wonder, and question... if the Spitfire wasn't escorting bombers to Germany, and the Luftwaffe mostly wasn't stationed in france...
Then how much combat did the Spitfire actually see after the Battle of Britain?Of course it saw action?!?! 22,000 built!!!
1) Spits were surely in Africa, but a lot of these planes were also Huricanes, and USA's P-40's... 'Tomahawks' flown by English pilots off English carriers in some cases?
2) Spits sent to USSR... flown by who I don't know...
3) Spits were protecting Malta first from invading Italy forces?, then from Germany? for the whole war? Or was this all huri's? (Grats RAF Malta Defense!)
3.5) Some in Suez Cannal also? Some in Gibraltar protecting the Straights of Gibraltar...
4) Spits were, of course, stationed and protecting England incase Germany sent a raid?
5) Spits were also fighting zeros on the other front, Pacific Theater of Opperations... stationed in Australia?
Seems like a lot of 'guard duty' for spits as far as Europe goes?...
6) Were some in Itally? Monte Casino, and all that? Germany held off the allieds in Italy from mid war till just about the end of the war... Siegfried line? Kesselring line? (getting confusing)...
7) Spits tipping over V1 buzz bombs?
After June 1944, D-day... to the end of the war 'May 8th, 1945...
Allieds were invading Europe on Western front, Soviets in Eastern...
The end result here is this map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_Germany
If Spit XVI's, both USA and ENGLAND powered types, were still based in England... then it would seem OBVIOUS that Spit encounters with Luftwaffe would be rare???
Short range fighter based far away?Is this why England's fighter pilots didn't have sooo many kills? Mostly on guard duty?Yes, the England had bombers, Lancasters etc etc, bombing stuff in France and Germany since middle of the Battle of Britain till the end of the war... what about fighters though?
WERE ANY SPITFIRES OF ANY MODEL/TYPE BASED ON EUROPE CONTINENT AFTER D-DAY?Maybe this is why you guys have to go OVER AND OVER this issue about did Spit16's see combat? Did any see combat? 22,000 spits made... I'm guessing, but I would like to see a graph of Spits total at the time, kills, and losses VS time... from 1939 onward... INTERESTING?
LUSCHE GOT A GRAPH?
Did any Spits at all, even earlier models, actually move onto the continent after D-day up to VE day? (june 6th 44 until may 8th 45)
Salute to RAF bombers... but for the Spits... does this explain its low sightings of Luftwaffe as some of you say?
NOT TROLLING JUST TRYING TO LEARN STUFF HERE... K?
