Clarifications about the Spitfire Mk IX and XVI

[Karnak]

Misinformation persists about the Spitfire Mk IX and Spitfire Mk XVI in AH. Some people still believe that very few (Franz Von Werra claimed 12 yesterday) saw service in WWII, another claim that the total combat time for the Mk XVI was 39 hours.  I have no idea where Franz got his 12 number from, though it might be accurate for bubble canopy Spitfire Mk XVIs.  The old 39 hours of combat was based on the total combat time for a single Spitfire Mk XVI airframe, not the combined total of all Spitfire Mk XVIs.  These claims are all based on poor understanding of what a Spitfire Mk XVI, or Mk IX, was.  You can no more say "Spitfire Mk IX" and be accurate than you can say "Bf109G" and be accurate.

The following is a list of Spitfire Mk IX series aircraft:

Spitfire F.Mk IX:  This version was powered by a Merlin 61 engine and had a universal wing. About 300 were built and it first saw combat in July of 1942.  This is what we have in AH labeled as a "Spitfire Mk IX".

Spitfire F.Mk IX:  In late 1942 or early 1943 the Merlin 61 was replaced by the Merlin 63. The aircraft are otherwise similar.

Spitfire HF.Mk IX: Introduced in 1943 with a high altitude Merlin 70 and a universal wing.  Often equipped with extended wing tips.

Spitfire LF.Mk IX: Introduced in 1943 with a low altitude Merlin 66 and a universal wing.  Often equipped with clipped wing tips.

Spitfire HF.Mk IXe: In early 1944 the universal wing was changed to the e wing with more hardpoints and two .50 cals replacing the quad of .303s alongside the 20mm, powered by a Merlin 70.  Often equipped with extended wing tips.

Spitfire LF.Mk IXe: An e wing equipped low altitude fighter powered by a Merlin 66 introduced in early 1944.  Often equipped with clipped wing tips.  Important Note: This is what we have in AH labeled as a Spitfire Mk XVI

Spitfire Mk XVI: This is a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe powered by an American built Packard Merlin 266.  Both came off the assembly line intermingled with the mark not even known until the Rolls Royce Merlin 66 or Packard Merlin 266 was mounted, the different mark number being for the purpose of identifying which tool sizes were needed to work on its engine.  The Merlin 266 had a critical altitude about 1000ft higher than the Merlin 66 and it is that difference that reveals the Mk XVI in AH to truly be an LF.Mk IXe. Spitfire Mk XVIs were all delivered with clipped wings, though photos of full span Mk XVIs can be found.

Spitfire LF.Mk IXe: In 1945 a bubble canopy version of the Spitfire LF.Mk IXe was introduced.  Very few made it into combat.

Spitfire Mk XVI: In 1945 a bubble canopy version of the Spitfire Mk XVI was introduced.  Very few made it into combat.


Notes:
1) Over 3000 Merlin 66 Spitfire Mk IXs were built and 1200 Spitfire Mk XVIs were built, making a total of what is essentially the same fighter of over 4200.
2) Spitfire wing tips could be changed in about 30 minutes at the field.  It was a fairly common occurrence, propably less complicated than mounting 20mm gondolas on the Bf109. Clipped wing Spitfire L.Mk Vs first appear in 1942.
3) I am not sure if any bubble canopy Spitfire HF.Mk IXes were built, so I didn't list it.

Are there any questions or disputes?

[GScholz]

Great post. Should clear up a lot of questions.

[Butcher]

Spitfire HF.Mk IX: Introduced in 1943 with a high altitude Merlin 70 and a universal wing.  Often equipped with extended wing tips.

Spitfire LF.Mk IX: Introduced in 1943 with a low altitude Merlin 66 and a universal wing.  Often equipped with clipped wing tips.

I would like these added in game sometime, there are a few other spitfires I cannot recall which ones but they would be delightful to add in game as well.

[Karnak]

The LF.Mk IX would be extremely similar to the LF.Mk VIII that we already have, if it had full span wings.  Less fuel, but otherwise hard to distinguish.

[Oldman731]

Are there any questions or disputes?

So...which of these was not the easy-mode version...?

- oldman (thanks for the post.  How many LF IX(e)s and 16s were produced?)

[Karnak]

So...which of these was not the easy-mode version...?

Spitfire Mk XIV, if any.  The Spitfire being easy to fly and fight in was one of the characteristics of the fighter and one of the reasons it was as successful as it was.

- oldman (thanks for the post.  How many LF IX(e)s and 16s were produced?)

I'll try to get those numbers for you, probably tomorrow evening.  This post, and another I have been working on have been tools to keep me away during an 18 hour work shift.  I recall about 1200 Spitfire Mk XVI's, so given they were coming off of the same production line as the LF.Mk IXe and the LF.Mk IXe was introduced first it could be as high as 2500 or so.  It really depends on how many Merlin 66s vs 266s were available.

[Brooke]

Which models were most used in WWII -- i.e., what one would consider to be the main-stream models?  I, V, and one of the IX's?

[lyric1]

RAAF 453 Squadron had more than 12 alone.
Page 168 has the start of the details.



http://www.scribd.com/doc/119116066/Defeat-to-Victory-Opt

[Zacherof]

Misinformation persists about the Spitfire Mk IX and Spitfire Mk XVI in AH. Some people still believe that very few (Franz Von Werra claimed 12 yesterday) saw service in WWII, another claim that the total combat time for the Mk XVI was 39 hours.  I have no idea where Franz got his 12 number from, though it might be accurate for bubble canopy Spitfire Mk XVIs.  The old 39 hours of combat was based on the total combat time for a single Spitfire Mk XVI airframe, not the combined total of all Spitfire Mk XVIs.  These claims are all based on poor understanding of what a Spitfire Mk XVI, or Mk IX, was.  You can no more say "Spitfire Mk IX" and be accurate than you can say "Bf109G" and be accurate.

The following is a list of Spitfire Mk IX series aircraft:

Spitfire F.Mk IX:  This version was powered by a Merlin 61 engine and had a universal wing. About 300 were built and it first saw combat in July of 1942.  This is what we have in AH labeled as a "Spitfire Mk IX".

Spitfire F.Mk IX:  In late 1942 or early 1943 the Merlin 61 was replaced by the Merlin 63. The aircraft are otherwise similar.

Spitfire HF.Mk IX: Introduced in 1943 with a high altitude Merlin 70 and a universal wing.  Often equipped with extended wing tips.

Spitfire LF.Mk IX: Introduced in 1943 with a low altitude Merlin 66 and a universal wing.  Often equipped with clipped wing tips.

Spitfire HF.Mk IXe: In early 1944 the universal wing was changed to the e wing with more hardpoints and two .50 cals replacing the quad of .303s alongside the 20mm, powered by a Merlin 70.  Often equipped with extended wing tips.

Spitfire LF.Mk IXe: An e wing equipped low altitude fighter powered by a Merlin 66 introduced in early 1944.  Often equipped with clipped wing tips.  Important Note: This is what we have in AH labeled as a Spitfire Mk XVI

Spitfire Mk XVI: This is a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe powered by an American built Packard Merlin 266.  Both came off the assembly line intermingled with the mark not even known until the Rolls Royce Merlin 66 or Packard Merlin 266 was mounted, the different mark number being for the purpose of identifying which tool sizes were needed to work on its engine.  The Merlin 266 had a critical altitude about 1000ft higher than the Merlin 66 and it is that difference that reveals the Mk XVI in AH to truly be an LF.Mk IXe. Spitfire Mk XVIs were all delivered with clipped wings, though photos of full span Mk XVIs can be found.

Spitfire LF.Mk IXe: In 1945 a bubble canopy version of the Spitfire LF.Mk IXe was introduced.  Very few made it into combat.

Spitfire Mk XVI: In 1945 a bubble canopy version of the Spitfire Mk XVI was introduced.  Very few made it into combat.


Notes:
1) Over 3000 Merlin 66 Spitfire Mk IXs were built and 1200 Spitfire Mk XVIs were built, making a total of what is essentially the same fighter of over 4200.
2) Spitfire wing tips could be changed in about 30 minutes at the field.  It was a fairly common occurrence, propably less complicated than mounting 20mm gondolas on the Bf109. Clipped wing Spitfire L.Mk Vs first appear in 1942.
3) I am not sure if any bubble canopy Spitfire HF.Mk IXes were built, so I didn't list it.

Are there any questions or disputes?

when they say universal thats the "c" wing right?

[Karnak]

when they say universal thats the "c" wing right?

Yes.  Calling it a 'c' wing came later.  It is the wing that could, in theory, have the Spitfire armed with eight .303s or two 20mms and four .303s or four 20mms.  In practice it almost always meant two 20mms and four .303s.  I am not aware of any that flew with eight .303s and only a small number of Mk Vs using the four 20mms for ground attack and a couple Mk VIIIs using four 20mms to go after Ki-46s. The Mk VIII's using it in the Pacific theater puzzles me a bit as the Ki-46s usually came in at extremely high altitude and the outer cannons did not receive enough heating, thus being prone to stoppages when used at altitude, to say nothing of the performance loss for the extra weight. Some Spit Vs were flown to Malta with the four 20mm and then had two of them removed to be used as spares and fought with just two 20mms, no machine guns.

[earl1937]

Misinformation persists about the Spitfire Mk IX and Spitfire Mk XVI in AH. Some people still believe that very few (Franz Von Werra claimed 12 yesterday) saw service in WWII, another claim that the total combat time for the Mk XVI was 39 hours.  I have no idea where Franz got his 12 number from, though it might be accurate for bubble canopy Spitfire Mk XVIs.  The old 39 hours of combat was based on the total combat time for a single Spitfire Mk XVI airframe, not the combined total of all Spitfire Mk XVIs.  These claims are all based on poor understanding of what a Spitfire Mk XVI, or Mk IX, was.  You can no more say "Spitfire Mk IX" and be accurate than you can say "Bf109G" and be accurate.

The following is a list of Spitfire Mk IX series aircraft:

Spitfire F.Mk IX:  This version was powered by a Merlin 61 engine and had a universal wing. About 300 were built and it first saw combat in July of 1942.  This is what we have in AH labeled as a "Spitfire Mk IX".

Spitfire F.Mk IX:  In late 1942 or early 1943 the Merlin 61 was replaced by the Merlin 63. The aircraft are otherwise similar.

Spitfire HF.Mk IX: Introduced in 1943 with a high altitude Merlin 70 and a universal wing.  Often equipped with extended wing tips.

Spitfire LF.Mk IX: Introduced in 1943 with a low altitude Merlin 66 and a universal wing.  Often equipped with clipped wing tips.

Spitfire HF.Mk IXe: In early 1944 the universal wing was changed to the e wing with more hardpoints and two .50 cals replacing the quad of .303s alongside the 20mm, powered by a Merlin 70.  Often equipped with extended wing tips.

Spitfire LF.Mk IXe: An e wing equipped low altitude fighter powered by a Merlin 66 introduced in early 1944.  Often equipped with clipped wing tips.  Important Note: This is what we have in AH labeled as a Spitfire Mk XVI

Spitfire Mk XVI: This is a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe powered by an American built Packard Merlin 266.  Both came off the assembly line intermingled with the mark not even known until the Rolls Royce Merlin 66 or Packard Merlin 266 was mounted, the different mark number being for the purpose of identifying which tool sizes were needed to work on its engine.  The Merlin 266 had a critical altitude about 1000ft higher than the Merlin 66 and it is that difference that reveals the Mk XVI in AH to truly be an LF.Mk IXe. Spitfire Mk XVIs were all delivered with clipped wings, though photos of full span Mk XVIs can be found.

Spitfire LF.Mk IXe: In 1945 a bubble canopy version of the Spitfire LF.Mk IXe was introduced.  Very few made it into combat.

Spitfire Mk XVI: In 1945 a bubble canopy version of the Spitfire Mk XVI was introduced.  Very few made it into combat.


Notes:
1) Over 3000 Merlin 66 Spitfire Mk IXs were built and 1200 Spitfire Mk XVIs were built, making a total of what is essentially the same fighter of over 4200.
2) Spitfire wing tips could be changed in about 30 minutes at the field.  It was a fairly common occurrence, propably less complicated than mounting 20mm gondolas on the Bf109. Clipped wing Spitfire L.Mk Vs first appear in 1942.
3) I am not sure if any bubble canopy Spitfire HF.Mk IXes were built, so I didn't list it.

Are there any questions or disputes?

If you are trying to start a "fan" club of you, sign me up!  This is outstanding information and for a aviation nut like me, I spent 2 hours learning things about the "Spits" I didn't know. I have a question which you may can answer related to another thread in here, relating to flat spins. Doing your research, did you run across any flight test notes from test pilots relating to that problem?

[Karnak]

I've never seen anything remarking on Spitfire flat spins.  If you look at the notes at http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org you'll see claims that even the heavy Mk XIV had to be held in a spin or it would recover on its own within three spins, but I doubt they are including flat spins in that.

[Zacherof]

Yes.  Calling it a 'c' wing came later.  It is the wing that could, in theory, have the Spitfire armed with eight .303s or two 20mms and four .303s or four 20mms.  In practice it almost always meant two 20mms and four .303s.  I am not aware of any that flew with eight .303s and only a small number of Mk Vs using the four 20mms for ground attack and a couple Mk VIIIs using four 20mms to go after Ki-46s. The Mk VIII's using it in the Pacific theater puzzles me a bit as the Ki-46s usually came in at extremely high altitude and the outer cannons did not receive enough heating, thus being prone to stoppages when used at altitude, to say nothing of the performance loss for the extra weight. Some Spit Vs were flown to Malta with the four 20mm and then had two of them removed to be used as spares and fought with just two 20mms, no machine guns.

to your knowledge, did any spits experiment with 4-6 50's?

[Tank-Ace]

to your knowledge, did any spits experiment with 4-6 50's?

Not likely they would use the .50 as the main armament on their fighters, due to it not being a standard caliber in the UK. Would have had the potential to strain the supply system.

[Karnak]

to your knowledge, did any spits experiment with 4-6 50's?

In the 1930s the RAF decided to go straight from the .303 to the 20mm.  They saw the .50s as better than the .303s, but also as only a stopgap that would face the same deficiencies as the .303.  The only reason any of their planes ended up with .50s was due to the readily available supply from the US.  Per the US Navy's tests the Spitfire Mk XVI has the same effective firepower as the P-47's eight .50s.

There was a mockup on the Mk IV, the originally planned Griffon Spit, of six Hispano Mk IIs, but that obviously never happened.