Author Topic: WWII Facts  (Read 4225 times)

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15718
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2013, 06:27:08 PM »
I think that it's highly likely that bombers shot down fighters.  Just in the 2nd raid on Schweinfurt it is clear that LW fighters were shot down by bombers (as there weren't US fighters present during much of the mission).

You can argue that gunners in AH kill attacking fighters with much higher probability than in real life, yes -- but you also have to admit that fighters in AH kill bombers with much higher probability than in real life.

Again, look at Schweinfurt.  229 B-17's attacked the city.  They were attacked by a couple hundred LW fighters.  60 B-17's were shot down.  35 LW fighters were shot down.  In AH, a 1:1 ratio of attacking fighters to defending bombers (note, this is 200 LW fighters and 200 bomber aircraft, not 200x3 bomber aircraft) would result in approx. 100% bomber loss and something far less than 100% fighter loss (10% maybe?).

Why?

Probably for a few reasons.  First, is that in real life pilots probably didn't press attacks the same way we do with no real physical harm on the line.  Second is that AH pilots have, on average, ten times more time fighting than even experienced real fighter pilots, and that translates into more lethality in the environment they have optimized themselves for.  Third is that it is probably easier to hit in AH than in real life (where equipment wasn't perfect, visibility was worse, there were malfunctions, vibrations, noise, extreme cold, more adrenaline pumping, movement was restricted in bulky equipment, etc.).

Offline save

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2873
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2013, 06:43:27 PM »
Uh, who cares. They shot down a passenger plane during the peace time. They were operating under the red star so they were generally called by a derogatory word twisted from the Swedish word 'ryssen' which means 'a russian'.

Russians got their name mainly to Swedish Wikings  that travelled all over western russia's river systems, Novgorod was build by swedish wikings. Finns already called swedes Rus according to link below.

http://viking.no/e/russia/
My ammo last for 6 Lancasters, or one Yak3.
"And the Yak 3 ,aka the "flying Yamato"..."
-Caldera

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15718
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2013, 07:18:28 PM »
The Rus were Vikings who captured Kiev and then ruled the region expanding from there.  They are, indeed, why Russia is called what it is.

The Norse also took over at various times:  large portions of Germany, England, Central Europe/Russia, Europe overall (including the western Roman Empire), and North Africa.

Offline DurrD

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 76
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2013, 07:46:50 PM »
I like these kind of fact lists, they are interesting, and in fact checking them I often learn many interesting historical facts.  However, sometimes these type of facts don't mean as much without some context.  I like facts and trivia as much as the next guy (probably a lot more in fact) but I never accept anything I read without crosschecking it to the extent possible.  Below are some of my notes on that last round with some corrections, and also an attempt to add some context and basis for comparison to some of the more random ones:

(1) Regarding number one, I'm not convinced that London and Baghdad are the only 2 cities to have been attacked by cruise and ballistic missiles.  Even in WW2, there were probably cities that were attacked by V-1 and V-2 other than London in the UK.  Additionally, Scud ballistic missiles were heavily used in the Iran/Iraq war as well as in Afghanistan during the 1980's.  Many of the cities attacked by those were also attacked by US Tomahawk cruise missiles.  They may well be the only two capitol cities so attacked, but I think that may also not be true, with Kabul being a prime candidate for addition to this list (although I cannot verify for sure that Kabul was directly attacked by both Scuds and Tomahawks).
(2) No dispute on the B-25 facts, it was a great plane and one of my favorites, but I would submit that the B-26 merits mention as well as it is usually cited as having the lowest loss rate of any US bomber, and probably the 2nd lowest loss rate of any bomber built in significant numbers by any side (the Mosquito was almost certainly the lowest of the common bombers, as it was virtually un-interceptable for most of the war).
(4) The class the stars fell on was very unusual, for anyone that knows how few of any given Academy class typically ever make general at any grade.  I believe the actual number of Generals for that class was 59 though not 61.  The actual breakdown of the class of 1915 was: Two 5 stars; two four stars; 7 three stars; 24 two stars; 24 one star.  The 5 star Generals were Eisenhower and Bradley, with Eisenhower furthermore going on to be a two-term President of the United States.  Even in the Civil War there were no classes that reached these kind of numbers.  The highest American Civil War classes were '35 (56 Generals); '37 (50); '41 (52); '42 (56); '46 (59); '53 (52).  The class of 1976 is rapidly becoming famous as the "class the stars fell on" from our era, with 33 Generals of its 855 graduates.  By the way, the class of 1915 only had 164 graduates, so not only in absolute numbers is it the highest, but it is by percentage as well (36%).
(9) This one is demonstrably not true.  Germany formally declared war on at least one other country during WW2 and that would be Norway on 24 April 1940.
(10) Also not true, the Japanese used chemical weapons from 1936-1939 in China and in an extensive way.  They were definitely used against Chinese Army troops in battle during this period, not just against civilians (although they did that as well).  There are also persistent allegations that the Nazis used chemical weapons in at least 2 isolated circumstances in WW2 against the Soviets.  I haven't seen any real compelling proof of this though.
(11) This is an overstatement of a fact.  The HMS Victory was in drydock and did in fact receive some damage from a bomb that fell in the drydock.  It was not a direct hit though as far as I am aware.  The HMS Victory is of course the oldest commissioned warship in the world, having been launched in 1765.  The USS Constitution (launched in 1797 as one of the original 6 frigates of the US Navy) is the oldest commissioned warship afloat (the Victory is in perpetual drydock).
(14) I would have to see evidence of this one.  I am not aware that any country used unmanned aircraft for the purpose of reconnaissance in WW2.  They were however used as targets for training, and of course as guided weapons.  By the way, to get real technical and nitpicky, Predators and other current unmanned aicraft are not drones.  Drones refer to unmanned targets such as the QF-106.  The Predator is more correctly referred to as a RPA or remotely piloted aircraft.  The media insists on calling them drones and it is very irritating to a nerd that is super detail oriented like myself.
(15) This happened more than once.  In the Pacific theater a P-47 struck the ocean and flew home with all blades bent back as well.  What a great airplane (and engine)!
(16) Obviously this is meant to say FW-190 not 109.  It also is worded misleadingly so that it appears that the TA-152 never saw combat, but that is not true.  It did, albeit in small numbers (less than 50 aircraft delivered, making it the Aces High aircraft that was the rarest of anything we have in the game, as even the Me-163 was built in the hundreds of aircraft).  The Bf-109 was produced in even greater numbers (most produced fighter in history with over 34k built) and with even more types and variants, with a truly staggering amount of variation, and even a number of custom one-off builds for certain aces if I remember correctly.
(17) From what I can tell, this is actually low!  Those figures given add up to 136 German flag officers KIA in WW2 (this number includes all services, which may account for the difference).  As near as I can tell after researching this I come up with 289 KIA.  In addition, if you count those killed in accidents, suicides, and executed during and after the war, as well as those that died as prisoners, the number comes up to a staggering 969 deaths of German Generals and Admirals.  They weren't the only ones though.  According to one source that I found, the Soviets lost 680 Generals during the war to all causes with 245 of those being KIA.  The Americans lost about 40.
(18) This is disputed as different countries counted differently, and there is lots of controversy over the numbers themselves for a variety of reasons, but on the many of the generally accepted lists, this is in fact how it is listed.  In addition to the 2 with over 300 kills, there are another 13 with over 200 kills credited and a total of 35 with over 150 kills.  Regardless of which side of the debate you come down on, it is clear that all the top fifty scoring fighter pilots in history are German, even if there were drastic overcounts (of which there is no evidence).  While all air forces in WW2 inflated their kill counts (mainly due to the fog of war essentially), the Germans actually were pretty meticulous about crediting kills personally, and there are some aces who actually may have scored MORE than they are credited with.  By the way, Aces High has really helped me understand how the overcounts happened.  For those of you that haven't flown in the historical type scenarios in AH (like the BoB scenario that is going on now, FSO, and Snapshots), they typically have the kill messages turned off, so you have no idea how many kills you get unless you see the enemy crash or sustain catastrophic damage.  Even then, several people may have been shooting at it.  So far, for every event I have flown in, except one, I have thought that I killed more enemy planes than the logs actually credited me with afterwards.  In real war, even more confusion would have prevailed no doubt.
(19) This is worded in a slightly confusing way.  I believe it means to say that Ilmari Juutilainen was the highest scoring non-German fighter ace, and that is in fact correct.
(21) Disputed at the very least.  Although the Brits counted V-1's as air-to-air kills, some lists don't count those, which would cause Van Lierde to drop way down the list as he only destroyed 6 fixed wing aircraft.  Also, Marmaduke Pattle is considered by some to have killed between 50 and 52, which would make him the undisputed high scorer of the RAF, but many of the records were lost early in the war.  Pattle makes most peoples short list as one of the greatest fighter pilots of all time independent of scoring, due to a rare combination of factors that he exhibited, much in the same way that Marseille is often listed by some as the Luftwaffe's greatest despite not being the highest scoring.
(23) Rudel predominantly flew the Stuka, but I believe that he scored all 9 of his air kills in a FW-190 which he also occasionally flew.  He also flew more combat missions than anyone in history a total that is unlikely to ever be surpassed.  His numbers may also be inflated some in terms of the objects killed, but as with his fighter pilot brethren, even if you cut them by two-thirds, you still end up with probably the top scorer.  It's a shame he was so dedicated to such an awful cause.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 07:51:48 PM by DurrD »
FBDurr -- A Freebird since 2013, been playing Aces High since 2001.

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2013, 08:37:28 PM »
5 post poster comments on a 60 post poster.

Interesting...light up the IP address locator boys, think we have someone talking to themselves again.
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2013, 08:48:55 PM »
The Luftwaffe calculated that it would only lose 1 aircraft for every 3 bombers shot down when attacking unescorted heavy bombers.  Aerial gunnery from bombers was a fatally flawed concept.  One author, who's name I can't remember, even said that no aircraft were ever shot down by the hand-held guns of American heavy bombers (waist, radio room, nose guns).  The turrets were only marginally better.  Someone posted a chart years ago showing the dispersion of the bullets from each turret of a B17 and B24.  20 mils at 500 yards for the B17s tail gun.  The conversion in feet was around a ~40 diameter I believe. 

A post-war study showed that speed was the key to success for both bombers and fighter escorts.  The faster a bomber was, the less likely it was to get shot down.  The escort fighters had to be faster than the intercepting fighters, or they would be useless.  A key example of this is F-86s escorting B29s into North Korea.  F-86 was basically the same speed as the Mig-15.  It couldn't stop them from shooting down the B29s, and daylight raids with B29s over North Korea were stopped.

Most early B-29 missions were escorted by F-84s and F-80s. F-86s didn't do much escorting... It's important to understand that the MiGs would be waiting at very high altitudes, and would dive in, speed brakes out. Unless the fighters get there well before the bombers, you can't prevent the enemy fighters from diving through the escort. Below 10,000 feet, the MiG-15 was not greatly faster than the F-84 and slower than any version of the F-86. When the F-86s arrived well in advance of the B-29s, the MiGs were often much too harried to be very effective.

Down low, the MiGs were less impressive. Indeed, in November of 1952, at least 3 MiG-15bis fighters were gunned down by a pair of Navy F9F-5s (Naval Reservists). Flying out of the Soviet Union, a sizable formation of MiG tested the air defenses of the US carrier groups. A pair of Panthers were directed to investigate the radar contacts. While passing 26,000 ft, the MiGs were spotted high above (around 50k). Both radar and visual counts showed 7 MiGs. Diving down, the MiGs initiated a gun run on the Navy fighters. Bad decision. The Navy pilots assumed they were under attack, asked for and received permission to engage the MiGs. Four MiGs made the initial attack with the other three coming down not far behind. The Navy pilots managed to gain the advantage despite the nearly 2/1 odds. A third F9F arrived as the remaining MiGs tried to bug out. This F9F finished off a damaged MiG. Gun camera film showed three MiGs down for certain, and at least three more damaged to varying degrees... The Soviets later admitted two MiGs down. Intercepted radio chatter revealed three missing and three more declaring emergencies. Soviet search and rescue efforts were substantial, but to no avail. On Panther was hit by several 23mm rounds, but returned to the CV (USS Oriskany) without difficulty.

The Soviets thought they were playing with F9F-2 fighters. However, these were F9F-5s, a bit more sporty than the -2.

The above is a very short version of the fight. All three of the Navy pilots have been interviewed several times (I have personally spoken to two of them)... After two of these gentlemen passed away, the remaining pilot changed his story, claiming he had shot down all three. Of course, this goes against the combat reports, State Department interviews, the Oriskany's After Action report and everything else obtained since the event. I have all of this documentation, including strips of the gun camera films. This story has been touched on in a magazine, and I wrote a web piece on it in 1997. John Bruning dedicated a chapter to it in his book, Crimson Sky.

One more thing, if you examine claims for B-29s shot down, the Soviets, Chinese and NK pilots claimed 124 B-29s downed by fighters combined. Actual losses to all causes were 34, with just 16 known to have been shot down by MiGs. Another 14 were lost to causes unknown, and it's possible that a few of this group that were victims of a MiG. Nonetheless, you cannot accept Soviet claims. If you did, you would have to believe that they shot down more F-86s than ever flew a sortie over Korea.
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Butcher

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5323
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2013, 08:53:03 PM »
24)   The highest (altitude) air to air kill: ETO - On 12 September 1942- Emanuel Galitzine intercepted a Ju-86R at 43,000  in the spitfire. Never shot the Ju down, but did fire at and made contact to force the Ju-86 back to France. PTO - F4U intercept a Ki-47 at 48,000 feet. Ack-Ack knows more about this story, please fill in on it.

Sent on behalf of Oaktree

I believe this was an F4u whose guns jammed, he used the prop to chop the tail off the Ki-45 (I believe it was). Whether this story is true or not I have never got to read an actual account of it, only "internet" hearsay.
JG 52

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2013, 09:05:00 PM »
I believe this was an F4u whose guns jammed, he used the prop to chop the tail off the Ki-45 (I believe it was). Whether this story is true or not I have never got to read an actual account of it, only "internet" hearsay.

It's a true story, it happened during the Okinawa campaign.  Forgot the name of the USMC pilot, but he and another Corsair pilot intercepted a IJAAF recce plane that was at 40,000ft+ and were forced to use their props to chew away the tail of the Japanese recce bird after Corsairs' cannon froze due to the high altitude.  It's a well documented and verified engagement and is considered the highest shoot down that occurred during WW2.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9493
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2013, 09:09:34 PM »
(I have personally spoken to two of them)


Good stuff, WW, thanks.

- oldman

Offline Charge

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2013, 03:59:47 AM »
"Yeah, the hand-held guns (not the turreted guns) of American heavy bombers probably never shot down an enemy aircraft."

Neither of gun systems used in B17's tail position were powered turrets but "hand-held" guns. Only top and bottom positions had powered turrets which had smaller scatter and thus more concentrated fire power. The guns on the sides were practically useless but the two gunners could be used for other important tasks during flight.. and fight.

-C+

 
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline DaveBB

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1356
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2013, 09:00:00 AM »
There is a reason they called it the "Cheyenne tail turret ". 
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline surfinn

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 733
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2013, 09:37:29 AM »
It's a true story, it happened during the Okinawa campaign.  Forgot the name of the USMC pilot, but he and another Corsair pilot intercepted a IJAAF recce plane that was at 40,000ft+ and were forced to use their props to chew away the tail of the Japanese recce bird after Corsairs' cannon froze due to the high altitude.  It's a well documented and verified engagement and is considered the highest shoot down that occurred during WW2.

ack-ack

Wow did his prop survive? Got to say that took guts.

Offline Butcher

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5323
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2013, 10:25:33 AM »
Wow did his prop survive? Got to say that took guts.

no kidding, I usually try to verify stories like this but ack-ack has got it, my problem is whats posted on the internet i try to track down however I have never been able too.
I seen a few variations of the story on the internet, i assumed it was fake. One website claims it was an F4u-5 which wasn't even in WW2.
JG 52

Offline muzik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 980
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2013, 10:34:44 PM »
"Against 20 Russians trying to shoot you down or even 20 Spitfires, it can be exciting, even fun. But curve in towards 40 fortresses and all your past sins flash before your eyes."  -- Hans Philipp

Wow, someone said war was fun. Who'd a thunk.

Oops, sorry. Carry on.
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline Charge

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
Re: WWII Facts
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2013, 02:19:21 AM »
"There is a reason they called it the "Cheyenne tail turret "."

Ok, if you consider mounting the guns in a geared aluminum "pumpkin" a turret, then that's what it is then. However, while it was somewhat an improvement to earlier model, it was not powered in any axis and it did not even provide improved armor protection to the gunner but only an armored rear glass. Thus it is no wonder that it had worse scatter than either of the powered turrets.

http://legendsintheirowntime.com/B17/B17_guns.html
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=21120.0

-C+
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."