Ford built Liberators in 55 minutes

[Oldman731]

oldman how many missions did Allied ace pilots fly compared to Lw ace pilots?

Iirc an American combat tour was 75 missions. Hartmann flew some 1200 missions.

Couldn't tell you what a Russian combat tour was.  Or Japanese.

I'm looking forward to reading the Wiki sources.  Some day.

- oldman

[GScholz]

Ivan Kozhedub, the leading Soviet and overall leading Allied ace flew his first combat mission on March 26, 1943 and scored his first 20 kills during the course of 146 sorties, 90 of which were escorts, 39 ground force cover, 9 armed reconnaissance and 8 scrambles. In total he claimed 62 personal victories flying 330 sorties.

[Fud]

I worked at Willow Run back in the late 80's early 90's in the same hangars the 24's were built. The old hand crank elevators used to get to the tail sections were still there!

[earl1937]

I worked at Willow Run back in the late 80's early 90's in the same hangars the 24's were built. The old hand crank elevators used to get to the tail sections were still there!

Wow! Great info! I lost my mind for a little while in the middle 60's and was flying C-46's, hauling Ford Motor Company auto parts to Kanas City for assembley! Stayed on that job for only 3 months! Got tired of getting feet wet every time you flew through a rain shower, no on board radars and in the spring of the year, March, April and May. That area is refered to many times as "thunderstorm alley", and by golly they are correct. I don't think I flew one trip in 3 months, that I didn't have to deviate around something, whew!!

[Jabberwock]

There is a US post-war assesment of German gun camera footage from 1944 that finds a direct correlation between the rank of the pilot and the likelyhood that a claim was confirmed as a kill. The higher the rank of the pilot, the more likely that their claim would be confirmed as a kill. This was true even when assesment of the gun camera footage (against B-17s and B-24s) showed that the claims of higher ranked pilots were no more likely to be accurate than that of pilots of lower ranks. There was a clear case of confirmation bias in German 'verification' of claims.

[GScholz]

Do you have this "assessment" ?

[Charge]

Coincidentally the more skilled you were (in LW) the more rank you had and the more probable was that you could shoot somebody down and the more probably you could reliably conclude if somebody was actually going down.

Statistics, oh what a can o' worms.

-C+

[save]

As a higher ranking German officer, you had a good wingman staying with you in the battle, and also see to you don't die (and confirm your kills).

The best German pilots tallied hundreds of kills against inferior enemy on eastern front ( seal-clubbing) until mid-44.
The best had the latest planes, and best wingmen.

The best German pilots on western front who flew only against western allies had less success, more than 100 kills
was uncommon.

Surviving as a German fighter pilot on the western front flying active from 1939-45 could well be a lotto-win equivalent.

One that made it was Karl Borris, he had 43 kills including five 4-engined buffs.

[GScholz]

Heinrich "Pritzl" Bär was the leading Luftwaffe ace on the western front who also survived the war. He was only beaten in victories in the west by Marseilles. Bär had 125 kills in the west and 96 in the east.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_B%C3%A4r


There were only eight Luftwaffe pilots who got credited with 100+ victories in the west: Hans-Joachim "Jochen" Marseille, Heinz "Pritzel" Bär, Kurt Bühligen, Adolf "Dolfo" Galland, Joachim Müncheberg, Werner Schroer, Egon Mayer, and Josef "Pips" Priller. Of these Bär, Bühligen, Galland, Schroer, and Priller survived the war.

[Bino]

There is a US post-war assesment of German gun camera footage from 1944 that finds a direct correlation between the rank of the pilot and the likelyhood that a claim was confirmed as a kill. The higher the rank of the pilot, the more likely that their claim would be confirmed as a kill. This was true even when assesment of the gun camera footage (against B-17s and B-24s) showed that the claims of higher ranked pilots were no more likely to be accurate than that of pilots of lower ranks. There was a clear case of confirmation bias in German 'verification' of claims.

Please list your source(s) for this.  I've never heard about it before, and I'd like to read it.  Thanks!   

[63tb]

Not sure how true this is but apparently Bar crashed while training in a Harrier. He was unhurt, but reportedly said, "add another destroyed allied aircraft to my score".

63tb

[Wmaker]

The Germans claimed fewer soviet aircraft destroyed in air combat than what the Soviet records show they lost in air combat. The Germans were under-claiming.

Due to few facts that I can get into later, I have a hard time believing you could have read this from anywhere.

Have you actually read a source which says the above?

[GScholz]

I believe I stated my source in the post you're quoting.

[Wmaker]

I believe I stated my source in the post you're quoting.

Krivosheyev? Ok, I understood that was for the Soviet losses alone.

I've read a slightly different story. For example during a period in the Kursk battle (5.7 -8.7 1943) Soviets reported 566 aircraft lost while Germans claimed that they destroyed 923 Soviet aircraft. Thus over claiming by 38,7% based on the Soviet loss reports. I'm not claiming this to be the absolute truth either. During the research of Finnish aerial victories it was found that there were clear gaps in the Soviet loss records on certain time periods especially on the Northern part of the front (where JG 5 operated). So it could well be that these gaps existed on other parts of the front as well where Germans were solely operating.

Sources:
POHJOINEN ILMASOTA (NORTHERN AIRWAR) by Hannu Valtonen
SUOMEN ILMAVOIMIEN HISTORIA 26 FINNISH AIR FORCE HISTORY: Aerial Victories part 1 by Keskinen & Stenman


Blindly comparing some total loss/victory figures together like that won't yield any accurate results. I guess I need to obtain the book from the author you mentioned and see how the figures are handled in that book and what conclusions exactly the author makes.

All nations, including the Germans, overclaimed, some more, some less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_and_overclaiming_of_aerial_victories_during_World_War_II

[GScholz]

It probably varied over time and fronts. Remember some claims never were filed at all... if the would be claimant didn't survive the encounter. Some units were wiped out and no one on their side really knew how many they took with them. War is not an exact science, however, in total the Luftwaffe claimed fewer Soviet aircraft destroyed in air combat than the Soviets reportedly lost.