AH vs R/L planes

[GScholz]

AH is easymode. All parts of the simulation, from departure characteristics to ground handling is very forgiving compared to real life. If the 262 was simulated realistically most people wouldn't even get it rolling without it bursting into flames.

[earl1937]

I went up in a Cessna 152 one day with the sole intention of doing aerobatics with the instructor. After a few rolls loops and spins I could tell the instructor was getting a little green when he said "let me show you something" His way of getting back on the controls so avoid hurling! - In this instance I can't remember all the settings but throttle came back to around 1500 RPM and he nursed the 152 along until he got the speed and attitude all set up. Next was to throw in the lot (I think) because the 152 executed a flick roll, recovery from which is more about timing than trying to follow the horizon which just spun around as a blur! I never knew it had the capability! - A conventional roll in a 152 (Full aileron and rudder) takes forever at much higher speed from a nose high attitude to exit in a nose low (wind it up to 120 in a shallow dive! before raising the nose). After a few more manoeuvres from the instructor it was my turn to start the cold sweat warning you of an impending hurl!

What you experienced is called a "snap roll"! It is much different than a "barrel roll", which is the hi-speed maneuver you described. The "four" point roll is the hardest of the rolls to do in a 152, as it does not have enough rudder to hold the "knife edge" when in the 90 degree attitude.  A slow roll, holding your nose on a cloud or other object, though out the roll is another 152 maneuver which is hard, if not impossible to do correctly because of the lack of enough rudder.

[earl1937]

Oh,that's a fun lookin' plane!

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

I want. (Seems my theme, lately.)

These folks got the design right on this one! A very good aerobatic aircraft and enough speed envelope to be able to do most all the ACM's for that size engine!

[mthrockmor]

I've been in a Cessna for a few stalls with a former USMC F-4 Phantom II pilot. It was a blast!!

Quick question that I can only guess about. Why is it that airplanes will always stall one way? It was mentioned that the P-51 will always drop their left wing first. Is this due to torque? If not, why?

Also, in reading the book by Capt Brown (RN) about Naval Combat, he mentioned that the 190 had to have trim set by hand on the ground. Is that accurate of all models or just the one he flew? Or, did I not read that correct?

Thanks in advance!

Boo

[pembquist]

i don't know what you been flying but using manual take off, i've crashed 109s, f4us and f6fs jamming the throttle forward and not using any rudder.

I'm pretty sure that in RL if you pushed the throttle all the way forward at the beginning of your take off roll on an f4u or f6 it wouldn't matter how much rudder you used, you'd be headed sideways off into the weeds.

[earl1937]

I'm pretty sure that in RL if you pushed the throttle all the way forward at the beginning of your take off roll on an f4u or f6 it wouldn't matter how much rudder you used, you'd be headed sideways off into the weeds.

Correct

[Rino]

     I wonder about USMC Phantom pilots.  I used to fix USAF F4s down in Georgia and every once in a
while we'd get transient visitors.  I remember walking along the flight line one afternoon and suddenly
hearing the Whoo Whoo Whoo noise our F4s would make when pulling Gs with the slats deployed.

     I looked up and there were a pair of RF-4Bs from the USMC flying straight and level.  They
performed a pretty snappy overhead recovery and then ruined it by ending with the typical Navy
 landing <sigh>. It looked about a 4.5 on the Richter scale.  

     They left the next day and after takeoff, held the nose down past the end of the runway.  After
building a little speed, they yanked the nose up so hard I thought the drop tanks were going to come
off.  A little risky, but alot of fun to watch  

[Rino]

I've been in a Cessna for a few stalls with a former USMC F-4 Phantom II pilot. It was a blast!!

Quick question that I can only guess about. Why is it that airplanes will always stall one way? It was mentioned that the P-51 will always drop their left wing first. Is this due to torque? If not, why?

Also, in reading the book by Capt Brown (RN) about Naval Combat, he mentioned that the 190 had to have trim set by hand on the ground. Is that accurate of all models or just the one he flew? Or, did I not read that correct?

Thanks in advance!

Boo

     I remember seeing a program on 109s that showed the manual trim tabs as well.  Maybe it was
just a popular thing with the german fighters.

[GScholz]

109s and 190s only had adjustable elevator trim. Aileron and rudder had fixed trim tabs usually configured for cruise speed.

[GScholz]

The reason a single engine prop will drop one wing first is the prop wash. The wing where the prop is ascending will stall first because the prop wash increases the angle of attack on the wing (the part of the wing that is in the prop wash). On the descending side the prop wash decreases the AoA delaying the stall.

[earl1937]

The reason a single engine prop will drop one wing first is the prop wash. The wing where the prop is ascending will stall first because the prop wash increases the angle of attack on the wing (the part of the wing that is in the prop wash). On the descending side the prop wash decreases the AoA delaying the stall.

What I found about which wing would break first, usually had to do with the student or pilot being uncoordinated during approach to the stall. On your turn and bank indicator, ball out of center left, the right wing would break first, because it was skidding as you entered the stall. Ball out of center to the right, the left wing will break first, again, because you are skidding the aircraft as you approach the stall. Ailerons not centered will also affect which way the aircraft breaks during the stall.
This is why it is so, so important for any pilot, student or not, to work on slow flight in the aircraft which they normally fly. 5 Knots above stall speed, IAS, making coordinated turns in both directions, both with full flaps down and up will sharpen your pilot skills, so that anywhere in the slow flight realm, the pilot is always in control of the aircraft. Most single engine aircraft of today will recover from a stall by simply relaxing the back pressure on the control yoke or stick, and the aircraft will fly out of the stall.
The only time I could see the prop wash having any effect on which wing breaks first is doing takeoff and departure stalls, with full power, or full power, flaps down stalls, then I think it would be minimal at best, as there are many other factors affecting the aircraft during these type maneuvers.

[hitech]

What I found about which wing would break first, usually had to do with the student or pilot being uncoordinated during approach to the stall. On your turn and bank indicator, ball out of center left, the right wing would break first, because it was skidding as you entered the stall. Ball out of center to the right, the left wing will break first, again, because you are skidding the aircraft as you approach the stall. Ailerons not centered will also affect which way the aircraft breaks during the stall.
This is why it is so, so important for any pilot, student or not, to work on slow flight in the aircraft which they normally fly. 5 Knots above stall speed, IAS, making coordinated turns in both directions, both with full flaps down and up will sharpen your pilot skills, so that anywhere in the slow flight realm, the pilot is always in control of the aircraft. Most single engine aircraft of today will recover from a stall by simply relaxing the back pressure on the control yoke or stick, and the aircraft will fly out of the stall.
The only time I could see the prop wash having any effect on which wing breaks first is doing takeoff and departure stalls, with full power, or full power, flaps down stalls, then I think it would be minimal at best, as there are many other factors affecting the aircraft during these type maneuvers.

Earl the difference in prop wash between Cessnas and WWII fighters is drastic. The left snap is primarily  do to the increased aoa on the left wing do the to prop slip stream. Dogfight in the real p51s I departed  3 times at about 180 mph. Doing normal approach stalls in the p51 , they felt about the same to me as with the Cessnas.


My first attempt at sustained inverted flight in the RV produce a very wicked inverted snap roll.  RV inverted stall speed turns out to be around 90 knots.

HiTech

[earl1937]

Earl the difference in prop wash between Cessnas and WWII fighters is drastic. The left snap is primarily  do to the increased aoa on the left wing do the to prop slip stream. Dogfight in the real p51s I departed  3 times at about 180 mph. Doing normal approach stalls in the p51 , they felt about the same to me as with the Cessnas.


My first attempt at sustained inverted flight in the RV produce a very wicked inverted snap roll.  RV inverted stall speed turns out to be around 90 knots.

HiTech

No question about the difference, but in power off situations, such as approach to landing stalls practice, the prop wash on any aircraft is insignificant, but departure stalls with full power is a different matter. In the hours which I flew the K model ponie, it certainly would break left 99% of the time, but most of it is helped by pilots being cross controlled as they enter the stalling speed area, and they usually stall unexpectedly, but almost always breaks left. Now don't get me wrong, I know the prop wash of an engine which has a prop with clock wise rotation, affects the air flow over the left wing.
How far are you from Larado, Texas? Reason I ask, a druggist friend of mine has a T-34 and his father lives in Larado, and he is not instrument rated and wants me to go with him to see his dad and I was thinking if you are not to far away, maybe one day I could come up and we could have some fun. I also would like to see the Aces High complex, would that be possible?

[colmbo]

   

     They left the next day and after takeoff, held the nose down past the end of the runway.  After
building a little speed, they yanked the nose up so hard I thought the drop tanks were going to come
off.  A little risky, but alot of fun to watch  

Many years back an F-15 was departing the Galena airport (joint use civil/Air Force) and wanted to impress the folks on the ground.  Held her level with a hard pull at the end (along the edge of the Yukon river).  The F-15 was an armed alert bird with missles and external tanks, he pulled the wings off and the wreckage went into the Yukon.  IIRC his wife was watching the takeoff.

[save]

I have read the 109s (as an example) could not do what we do in AH, ram the throttle full forward (even with WEP), without ground-looping. I guess many high-powered planes behave the same.

Can someone explain to me why its a difference, as it should do the same in AH.