Author Topic: How to avoid the HO shot.  (Read 6590 times)

Offline Latrobe

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How to avoid the HO shot.
« on: October 07, 2013, 10:51:04 PM »
Posted this in the squad forums, but thought it might be good material for everyone since I hear a lot of complaints about about people dying to Head On passes. It's my explanation on how to always successfully avoid the HO shot.


To avoid a HO pass what you want to do is create HORIZONTAL and VERTICAL separation from your attacker. You do not want to put your nose on him, but instead put it off to his side, below/above him, or (best positioning) off his side AND below/above. You want to set yourself up to get into a part of the airspace that he can not get guns to. You don't (ever) want to fly into your opponents guns unless you're making a Head On Shot that you know without a doubt that you will win. Like a Mossi versus a Zeke. (But even then, it only takes 1 lucky bullet to kill the pilot, so use extreme caution in Head On passes).

Here we have an enemy P-51 making a Head On pass with us. There is no horizontal separation (nor any vertical either) so the P-51 has an easy time putting guns on us.


Let's take this one step at a time and start with HORIZONTAL separation. Here is our current path flying nose to nose with the P-51.


If we continue this flight path then obviously the P-51 will have guns on us.


We need to create some horizontal separation from this P-51, and we do that by banking to the left or right of him. Not a full turn or even 90 degrees. Usually 20-30 degrees is enough to create the horizontal separation we need.


This simple turn completely changes the angle for the P-51. We are no longer in his guns (for this brief moment anyways). The P-51 has to change his flight path in order to pull lead on us and get a shot. This also no longer puts us nose to nose with the P-51. He's now in our 1-2 o'clock area. The P-51 will turn into our turn and 1 of 2 things will happen.


Either 1: You timed your turn just right and you will be past the P-51 before he has time to correct his flight path and pull lead...


If the P-51 tries to make the turn then he will overshoot and you will be in a good position to reverse your turn and instantly go on the attack.


OR 2: The P-51 has time to correct his flight path and starts to pull lead lead on you. In this case you really do not want to try and tighten your turn anymore since this will expose your 6 to the P-51 (If he has time to correct his flight path then he obviously hasn't overshot yet. A tighter turn just puts you in his gunsight.) What you want to do in this case is reverse your turn. We have created a small horizontal problem for the P-51 with our first turn by putting him off our 1-2 o'clock instead of our 12. Reversing our turn completely changes the angle on the P-51 in the opposite direction.


The P-51 will have to roll back the other way and pull a lot of G's to even have a hope of getting even a short shot at us. Take a look at where the P-51 has to aim when we broke left, and then look how far in the other direction he has to aim when we simply reverse our turn. What was a shot on his 12 o'clock is now off to his 9 o'clock. The closure rate in a Head On pass and the distant between the two planes by this point means the P-51 will never make that turn. This is how to set yourself up to get to a part of the airspace that your opponent can't shoot at.



Of course, a plane isn't limited to horizontal moves. We have the vertical to exploit these little angles with as well. Just like how we can go left or right in the horizontal, we can also go up or down in the vertical. In this diagram we go nose down to put the angle below the P-51. The P-51 sees this and noses down too to try and get his shot. Now we're creating angles! We are no longer nose to nose, but the P-51 nosing down has put us back in his guns, so we'll nose down some more and create and even sharper angle for him. The P-51 has to push his nose down even farther to get a shot and this creates an even sharper angle than before. As the P-51 is diving steeper to get a shot and gets close to guns range (600-400 icon range) we pull back on the stick and go from a dive to a climb. This drastically changes the point where the P-51 has to aim to land hits. Look at where he has to aim from points 2-3. At point 2 he has corrected his attack run against our slight dive and has guns on us, BUT we have started creating angles. At point 2.5 as we steepen our dive and pass below the P-51 we can see the point of aim for the P-51 is getting farther and farther behind his flight path. So, he has to dive steeper and steeper in order to pull lead on us. We wait until he gets close to guns range and then we pull back on the stick, changing from a dive to a climb and this dramatically changes the point of aim for the P-51 from a steep angle below him to nearly right behind him. There is no physical way for the P-51 to pull his aircraft around tight enough to get that shot.



These images are far from accurate scaling but hopefully you get what I was getting at.


This is just one example both horizontal and vertical separation. Vertically, instead of going into a dive, we could have gone into a climb and done the same thing as we did in a dive... just in a climb. Or, at point 2 of our dive we could have reversed our dive into a climb at that point and change the angle there. It all really depends on the situation and what you feel will bring you the greatest success. Whatever you choose to do though, it's alwasy best to create vertical AND horizontal separation from your opponent if at all possible. This give your opponent 2 angles to deal with and all the problems that come with them.

Offline scott66

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2013, 03:02:03 AM »
Thanks latrobe :aok will try this
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Offline bozon

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2013, 03:29:18 AM »
Too complicated. I just put my aim dot on the bad guy and hold the trigger till someone dies. Let's face it, most of us just want that one kill before we die in the hope of reaching the coveted 1 K/D.
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Offline Randy1

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2013, 06:22:13 AM »
Well done.  I need to work on the combination vertical and horizontal separation.

Question.  If the mustang had not attempted to solve the angle problem and had turned up and away to create his or her own vertical and horizontal separation, the mustang would have the temporary E advantage and with lower speed a better turn rate.  How would you counter that?  I run into this problem when the attacker is one of the better players.

Offline Latrobe

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2013, 07:10:23 AM »
If the mustang went vertical instead of for the HO shot then it depends on the situation. How much E both planes had and what plane you're flying plays an important part in deciding what to do. In this match up it's a P-51D vs 109G14 and the P-51 had a small E advantage into the merge. If the P-51 went vertical then he converts that E into altitude and gains the altitude advantage. For the 109, trying to turn onto the P-51s 6 is a bad move. He will bleed too much E in the turn and the P-51 already has a small E advantage. The P-51 will easily out climb the 109 and kill him as he stalls. What I personally would do against the P-51 going vertical is I'd extend away from him and go into a shallow climb while keeping enough E to maneuver for when the P-51 makes an attack run. If the P-51 makes an attack run then I'll turn into him, nose down under him, avoid his shot, and start climbing away from him the other way. What I want to do is either dodge his shots long enough to climb to his altitude and neutralize his altitude advantage, or wait him out until he makes a mistake and comes down to my altitude or gives me a shot.

Speed is life, but altitude dictates the fight. If you have the altitude advantage then you get to choose when and where to start the fight. The enemy(s) below you, even if they have the speed advantage, are not too much of an immediate threat to you. They have to climb to you and use up that E advantage they have to get altitude. They'll either stall out before they climb to you or once they do get to your altitude you have the speed advantage.



Another situation involving your opponent going into a climb instead of for the HO shot. Lets say you're flying a 109K4 and you're merging with an A6M. You're cruising at 350mph and we can assume the A6M is at about 300mph. The 109K4 has a significant climbing advantage over the A6M. We make our turn and put our nose off to the side of the zeke and we see he doesn't appear to be adjusting for a head on shot. As we pass we see the zeke nose up possibly to do an immelman and came back around onto our 6. What I'd do is pull back slowly into a gentle climb (kind of like what I explained earlier but the climb gradually gets steeper here as I go into steep climb straight up). We know we have the speed advantage over the zeke and a climb advantage, but the zeke is a better turner. We do a gentle climb first to get the zeke to burn a lot of E making his loop and so we get some separation from him so he's not sitting 400 yards off our 6 as we climb. As the zeke gets to the top of his loop he should be roughly 600-800 icon range and we'll gradually steepen our climb and put our E and climbing advantage to use. When the zeke rolls over and starts trying to climb with us we pull back some more and climb nearly straight up. The zeke will be about 800 off our tail (just outside of effective guns range) and we'll be climb away from him with our E and climbing advantage. Now we have the altitude advantage and can either kill him in our rope or BnZ tactics if we miss our he breaks off.

Offline TDeacon

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2013, 01:37:38 PM »
The simplest way to avoid HOs is to head directly towards the guy until just outside the range where he will open fire (maybe 1000 yards).  Then pull hard to one side.  They don't have time to roll to that side and pull adequate lead, so they always miss.  No diagrams needed.   

MH

Offline Wiley

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2013, 01:48:21 PM »
The simplest way to avoid HOs is to head directly towards the guy until just outside the range where he will open fire (maybe 1000 yards).  Then pull hard to one side.  They don't have time to roll to that side and pull adequate lead, so they always miss.  No diagrams needed.   

MH

It can be done, but it burns a buttload of E.  Latrobe's description here is a much smoother technique that gives you far better position and E state while accomplishing the same thing.

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Offline DubiousKB

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2013, 01:57:06 PM »
Great write-up! +10

I believe I started doing this without even realizing I was performing the maneuver.  Anytime you can force your opponent into hard (tight) angles, you have a better chance at surviving the attack. Also, I find turning your aircraft so that your profile is the side to the attacker. This minimizes the target area for your attack to hit.

Great visual aids!
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2013, 04:45:56 PM »
It can be done, but it burns a buttload of E.  Latrobe's description here is a much smoother technique that gives you far better position and E state while accomplishing the same thing.

Wiley.

It burns his to the same degree, IMHO.  Also, it puts you in a different plane of maneuver when you go up, which disorients many opponents. 

MH
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 04:48:25 PM by TDeacon »

Offline Bruv119

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2013, 04:47:42 PM »
how to avoid the HO?

Don't put your nose on the other guy and expect him to do the same.    :aok
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Offline Wiley

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2013, 05:15:47 PM »
It burns his to the same degree, IMHO.  Also, it puts you in a different plane of maneuver when you go up, which disorients many opponents. 

MH

Assuming he pulls for you.  If he retains his E, you're now at a disadvantage.

Like I said, it's possible and necessary sometimes if you're caught unaware, I'm just saying if you don't have to, it shouldn't be plan A.

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Offline Kingpin

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2013, 05:16:31 PM »
The simplest way to avoid HOs is to head directly towards the guy until just outside the range where he will open fire (maybe 1000 yards).  Then pull hard to one side.  They don't have time to roll to that side and pull adequate lead, so they always miss.  No diagrams needed.    

MH

This is not true.  It sure is simple, but it isn't nearly as effective as you claim.  In fact, this was recently proven (by some folks experimenting/testing in the DA) to NOT be a particularly effective way to avoid a HO.  A pilot who is a half-way decent shot is likely to hit and even kill you (especially with cannons) if you use this method.

If you fly nose to nose to 1000 yards, you haven't avoided a HO -- you've flown into a HO shot (even if you don't intend to fire).  You have probably just been fortunate, in that many of the better pilots (and better shots) usually don't go for the HO shot anyway.  I am always more concerned when a pilot flies a HO avoidance path (like Latrobe describes) and obviously intends to go guns cold on the first merge.  I tells me I'm probably up against someone better than average.  

While Latrobe's explanation may sound too complex for some, it is really quite simple and very effective. Fly for vertical and horizontal separation before the merge and use that separation to avoid more smoothly, while the con pulls harder than you do to get a shot.  You'll win a lot of merges this way and not get HO'd as well.

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« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 05:25:34 PM by Kingpin »
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Offline Arlo

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2013, 05:39:44 PM »
This is not true.  It sure is simple, but it isn't nearly as effective as you claim.  In fact, this was recently proven (by some folks experimenting/testing in the DA) to NOT be a particularly effective way to avoid a HO.  


Sorry, squaddie.  :salute

The folks experimenting/testing such started out with me and Titanic .... on the deck (which cuts options by half). Most times, a pilot not expecting the dodge at an alt where you can both side-slip and dive a bit will miss. I've just done it so much in both the MA and events that it's not a rare instance, at all. Usually against 109s and Spits. Occasionally against just about any other fighter in the game.

Speaking of which .... I need to fly more (and not in a Hurri).  :D



The Hurri slips to the side and drops a bit













2nd attempt .... 1 minute later











3rd attempt .... 30 seconds later ... though not so much a HO this time, just another miss and run.







« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 05:44:36 PM by Arlo »

Offline RotBaron

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2013, 06:39:10 PM »
Latrobe:

In your pic illustration, the HO'n pilot is in a less than avg turner, even at high speeds I wouldn't imagine her rate compares with any 109. Anyhow, I've been thinking about this a lot and using variations of your method. I'm just wondering how much you would use the method (double/two turns) if the opponent were a better turner than what you are in. Seems to me that some of the best turners could still go for the HO and end up with the advantage. I suppose the double turn avoidance would allow extending as the HO'r just lost a lot of kinetic, assuming they're not in a Spit.

Lets say a Corsair vs. A6M, zeke is the HO'r.   Co-alt ~ Co-kinetic


Edit: I know a lot of ppl would say just HO the zeke, he'll flame up first, but I'm asking as a baseline. This is a situation that I can attribute to other planes and make adjustments for if I have a baseline. This situation presents itself a lot off of a CV base take. Guy in the Corsair is trying to focus on ack, Zeke is trying to focus on anyway possible to stop the base take...
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 06:42:55 PM by RotBaron »
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Offline Latrobe

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Re: How to avoid the HO shot.
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2013, 07:38:42 PM »
If the HO'er has the better turny plane then the same principle still applies, as far as I can think of anyways. It all comes down to timing and positioning. Against a more turny plane (like an A6M) I would make my reverse at a much closer range (just before the icon changes to 400). Whereas against a less turny plane (such as a P-38) I would reverse my turn a little further out (somewhere around 600 icon range depending on speeds and closure rate). The only plane that might be some trouble is a 190 since its fantastic roll rate allows it to change directions quickly, but again timing and positioning can beat a 190 as well.

I guess I should have pointed out as well that plane strengths and weaknesses can play a role in avoiding a HO shot as well. If you're up against a plane that isn't good in dives and compresses, then you might want to think about using nose down moves to force him to dive, build up speed, and use his bad high speed handling against him so he can't reverse to make the shot. On the other side of the coin we could be going up against a plane that is great in a dive, but loses speed quickly in a climb and has bad low speed handling. In that scenario we'd want to think about using some nose up moves to get him climbing, burn his E off, and get him slow where he can't maneuver as well.