How to avoid the HO shot.

[Kingpin]

Sorry, squaddie.  

The folks experimenting/testing such started out with me and Titanic .... on the deck (which cuts options by half). Most times, a pilot not expecting the dodge at an alt where you can both side-slip and dive a bit will miss. I've just done it so much in both the MA and events that it's not a rare instance, at all. Usually against 109s and Spits. Occasionally against just about any other fighter in the game.

Yeah, I think it was I who mentioned that to you, that you were going to have trouble doing that HO avoidance on the deck and against a 110s bullets.

Your example above makes a last minute jinking method easier (mostly because of the plane match ups), but I still think it is important to state that waiting until 1K to offset is NOT the best way to approach a first merge and HO avoidance.  Can it be done, yes.  Will it work all the time, no.  More importantly, it doesn't gain you any E or angles.  The post I responded to above said the opponent will "ALWAYS" miss, which simply isn't true.  I don't even believe it has a reliably high rate of success, whereas Latrobe's method does.

Since this is the Training Forum, and may be read by newer players, I think it is important to point that out that flying nose to nose to 1000 yards is NOT the BEST way to handle HO avoidance.  If you have the option of offsetting prior to that, as Latrobe is presenting here, it is a far superior method in my opinion (for the reasons I stated above) compared to a last second jink.

<S>
Ryno

[Latrobe]

I think it is important to point that out that flying nose to nose to 1000 yards is NOT the BEST way to handle HO avoidance.  If you have the option of offsetting prior to that, as Latrobe is presenting here, it is a far superior method in my opinion (for the reasons I stated above) compared to a last second jink.

<S>
Ryno

I think that brings up a rather small but important question that someone may eventually ask. When is the best time to start setting up for avoiding a HO shot (or a merge in general). And the answer is, as soon as possible! The very second you see an enemy, be it at 1000 yards or 5K, you need to immediately assess the situation and maneuver for the merge that will bring you the most success in the situation you are presented with. Even if it's just a dot on the horizon that you don't have icon range one yet, start thinking of what you will do against whatever plane it may be. Is it a P-51? I should get altitude so he can't BnZ me. Is it an i-16? I need to build up speed and use that against him. If you start maneuvering for the merge before your opponent, then you get into position first, and that give you a big advantage into the merge.

[Arlo]

Ah. Alas, tis seldom I see the player practicing a head-on (which I consider just as valid an attack as any) actually reversing into a knife-fight immediately, so whatever energy they retain versus mine (an advantage they probably already enjoyed). But that initial joust, when I see it coming (ie. not looking over my shoulder at an opponent I'm already engaged with) is neither intimidating or unwanted.

Ole'.  

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm contradicting you. Upon clarification, I don't think I do. I have taken rare hits (even critical ones). But it's not a crisis. I think we both agree.  

[TDeacon]

The simplest way to avoid HOs is to head directly towards the guy until just outside the range where he will open fire (maybe 1000 yards).  Then pull hard to one side.  They don't have time to roll to that side and pull adequate lead, so they always miss.  No diagrams needed.   
<snip>

This is not true.  It sure is simple, but it isn't nearly as effective as you claim.  <snip>

<snip>
Your example above makes a last minute jinking method easier (mostly because of the plane match ups), but I still think it is important to state that waiting until 1K to offset is NOT the best way to approach a first merge and HO avoidance.  Can it be done, yes.  Will it work all the time, no.  More importantly, it doesn't gain you any E or angles.  The post I responded to above said the opponent will "ALWAYS" miss, which simply isn't true.  I don't even believe it has a reliably high rate of success, whereas Latrobe's method does.

Since this is the Training Forum, and may be read by newer players, I think it is important to point that out that flying nose to nose to 1000 yards is NOT the BEST way to handle HO avoidance.  If you have the option of offsetting prior to that, as Latrobe is presenting here, it is a far superior method in my opinion (for the reasons I stated above) compared to a last second jink.
<snip>

Hmmm; it has worked for me for the last 10 years.  I don't think I have *ever* been hit in a HO when doing this.  With respect to energy and angles, there are a lot of variables there, and I wasn't discussing them.  Sometimes on a merge you even want to slow down.  

MH

[Kingpin]

Hmmm; it has worked for me for the last 10 years.  I don't think I have *ever* been hit in a HO when doing this.  With respect to energy and angles, there are a lot of variables there, and I wasn't discussing them.  Sometimes on a merge you even want to slow down.  

MH

I'll take you at your word that you've never been shot doing this.  I really think it relies heavily on your opponent either being a pretty poor shot or not anticipating the move.

Then again, maybe the way you are executing it is not how I envision it from your description.  It wouldn't surprise me if you have some small bit of offset that allows you to pull it off, even though you are describing it as a nose to nose merge to 1K.  Perhaps PM me a few film examples of the next few times you pull this off, especially against a nimble multiple cannon armed plane like a 110, La-7 or a Spitfire.  The point of my disputing your post was not to say it couldn't be done, but that it shouldn't be done or relied on all the time.

I still think Latrobe's method of HO-avoidance (instead of a last-second jink) is the BEST method that should be promoted to new players on the training forum.

<S>
Ryno

[Arlo]

not anticipating the move.

^Likely. Few seem to. As seen in my screenshots, the opponent does seem to apply rudder, as well, but too late to be effective. As far as Deacon's response, I had no ides this form of HO avoidance worked with tanks.

 

 

[Brakechk]

Nice write up.  It occured to me while reading it that I tend to do all of this stuff when possible as part of an attempt at a good merge.  In other words in the attempt at gaining an angular advantage in the merge, the avoidance of the Head On is a happy by product.  I do get hit on occasion in the MA but it's typically a result of my being lazy about my merge. 

Generally you can see the Head On attempt coming from the other plane just by what they are doing.  Obviously no attempt at separation on the merge coupled with their attempt at a nose on flight path no matter what your actions are is a good indication of the other guys plan to HO.  This is where the laziness on my part occurs.  I generally tend to think E retention during the merge over angles to allow me to catch him or lessen my E disparity and don't maneuver enough as a result and sometimes take hits.

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is avoiding the Head On passes that frequently occur when you are fighting multiple planes...especially in the case where another red plane joins a fight already in progress.  In that case you don't have room (if you're on the deck) or the speed in the case of a longer drawn out fight, for vertical or horizontal separation on the incoming HO attack.  In these cases I use a short barrel roll around the incoming HO attack.  You don't benefit many times in terms of gaining angles but it is something that can allow you to avoid that one shot and can help minimize angles loss to the plane you're already fighting. 

I think comparisons to DA duels and MA furballs is a bit difficult except in terms of what you all have described (practicing situations etc.)  In the DA dueling style merges tend to be on the deck and as neutral as possible at the beginning of the fight.  In the MA you merge from all angles and any number of differing altitudes and speeds.  I think it makes avoiding HO shots in the MA much much easier because the separation is much more available to you.  I have noticed that there are a number of folks in the MA who tend to be pretty good at front quarter shots.  However the vast majority of that group tend to fall apart once the fight progresses to an angles or sometimes even BNZ style fight. 

Zaphod 

[ToeTag]

let me summarize this....turn away from the head on and hope for an over shoot?

[BaldEagl]

let me summarize this....turn away from the head on and hope for an over shoot?

My summarization would be create seperation and angles however there's more ways to do that than one and you can do it without turning away by much.  I'd also say the result, however it's done, is more a fly-by than an overshoot.

It's also valuable to note that however seperation and angles are created if the opponent is commited to the HO you have the immediate advantage after the pass if he turns to fight rather than running away.

Finally, the last minute juke move, while it can work, is the worst option as it usually turns the enemy out of your field of view at a critical point in the merge.

[Arlo]

Finally, the last minute juke move, while it can work, is the worst option as it usually turns the enemy out of your field of view at a critical point in the merge.

It has never turned the enemy out of my FOV. As I side-slip and dip (one way or the other) the other plane is passing on my high right or high left. At that point I am exercising either a right or left Chandelle.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chandelle.gif

[BaldEagl]

It has never turned the enemy out of my FOV. As I side-slip and dip (one way or the other) the other plane is passing on my high right or high left. At that point I am exercising either a right or left Chandelle.

(Image removed from quote.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chandelle.gif

Which is why I said usually rather than always.  It depends on which way and how you decide to break.  If you (not you specifically) simply tell someone to juke in three dimensions there's more ways to lose sight than to retain it.

[-ammo-]

Good stuff.

I use the same method Latrobe describes and can say I never lose in a HO situation, and I never look for a gun solution in one either - well, not the initial merge anyway.

[Arlo]

Which is why I said usually rather than always.  It depends on which way and how you decide to break.  If you (not you specifically) simply tell someone to juke in three dimensions there's more ways to lose sight than to retain it.

Ok.   

[Spirit]

Interesting thread !  


Btw i ran some tests with the 13mm on D9, as i use it a lot, and with 650m Conv these two weapons are perfect for 400m-500m sniping on HO,
which means that with training u can snipe at 450m, then dodge to avoid enemy fire (which often comes at 300m or less)...

کpirit.

[RotBaron]

Good stuff.

I use the same method Latrobe describes and can say I never lose in a HO situation, and I never look for a gun solution in one either - well, not the initial merge anyway.

Never?