Eliminate zone bases...

[715]

You never see anybody rush to resupply the refinery, ack factory, etc after they have been bombed because they just don't matter.

You never see anyone do that because it is mind boggling useless.  Taking a box to a particular damaged strat reduces its down time by only 4 minutes out of what can be nearly  100 minutes.  Supplying the strats has so little effect you have to be insane to waste your time doing it.

And for the people that seem to enjoy denying the game to others and "punishing" them for not properly defending their strats, how do you handle the causality problem?  If I log on and I find my country is laid waste, is this a proper punishment for me for not having defended it before I even existed in the game?   And will that cause me to better defend in the past?  Can you tell me where I get the time machine to do that please?

[RotBaron]

Oh, I wouldnt say that it is a waste of time taking a heavy fighter to the strats.  1 single P51D can do a lot of damage in one pass.  Same goes for the P47D-40.  We'll make a single pass through the auto ack and drop everything on 1 factory and then RTB. 

All three chess pieces get their turn at getting their strats hit hard, I'm not seeing any one side get any more than the other, really.  Actually, I can't remember the last time I hit the Knight strats.  However, almost daily I'll hammer the squeakops at least once.   

Unless if you have already taken out the ack towers (at least some of them,) as I stated, you won't make it to your target in a ftr. If you have been able to repeatedly make it to your target in a ftr, against strats that are 100% and you even survived to rtb, please share your secret with the rest of the community. I've participated in numerous attacks on strats once the cv gunners had their fill of fun. The only way I've ever seen anyone or myself able to be effective against strats is once they've been hit pretty good. What are you talking about, flying a pony at 20k, and dive bombing with your release below the 8.5kagl? If so I'd still doubt you didn't get hit by puffy. I know that is not what you said, but there is no making a single pass through strat ack, unless they're hit...so please share.  Furthermore, we have a different definition of a lot of damage I guess; when I do strat runs, ~20% of of 3-4 factories depending on what I'm flying is a minimum I like to see.

All three chess pieces on several maps are not constantly backed up to their strats. If you think the other two have been backed up to their strats lately, than you're not talking about the MA.

[bustr]

... as they are a gameplay paradox - They do not promote combat, they largely prevent it.

Instead of being key bases that are ferociously fought over, they are bases that a reasonable attacker doesn't want to capture and the defender doesn't want to hold - in fact, losing a zone base best thing thing that can happen to one side, as it then can go on conquering the map without having to worry too much about their own starts and thus downtimes of their own  towns, ords and so on.

Remove the zone base status from the three large maps and let people fight for them instead of avoiding them!  

Forgive me Lusche for going to the heart of the process, the strats themselves. Removing the zone base function would be a kindness to players, I guess sticking the strats in one place at the same time. Or is there another "retreat" trigger?Changing the vulnerability to the source of the zone base's ownership would change the importance of the zone bases. Though that would require more players to appreciate the "chess" or "Go" hidden aspects of their contribution to the country they are playing for during their short fun seeking session.

Have we ever attempted to list a realistic breakdown of what is important to players by player density? Would their short term fun related goals top the list per player density? If so, what is it you want the zone bases and strat functions to do to their seeking of short term fun? Is it realistic, and who will ultimately benefit besides the architect getting what he wants? Opposed to improving the ability to seek fun by the majority.

In a way, player fun, zone bases, and strats effect upon that, are describing an economic system style outcome imposed by a central authority. The majority of players are oblivious to it unless you make drastic corrections that ultimately impact their fun. Does this correction really matter to their ultimate fun or the authority?

[DREDIOCK]

Can anyone dispute that the old zone base system was better? If so. How is the current setup better then the old?
Or how wouldnt what I suggested in the general forums here http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,355005.msg4702503.html#msg4702503 be better then what we have now?

[Lusche]

Can anyone dispute that the old zone base system was better? If so. How is the current setup better then the old?

Not the zone bases themself, but the important central strats do offer something since last August which has been absent from AH for ages: A high value (in game terms), long range targets for bombers.

[DREDIOCK]

Not the zone bases themself, but the important central strats do offer something since last August which has been absent from AH for ages: A high value (in game terms), long range targets for bombers.

Could have had that by simply doing what I suggested as opposed to bouncing strats around when a special base is captured and leaving the old Zone style system in place which provided reason for seeking ot attack or defend specific bases.

the only downside to the old system that i saw was the milk running that took place on the local strats which could have been easily addressed  by what I also suggested int he link above. you dont want to pork strats you might need to advance. On the other hand if your defending hitting the local depots makes sense. it provides a reason to both attack and defend such targets locally. And the deeper strats would have a greater effect nationally thus making them a desirable target to both attack and defend. People care if Radar is taken out. Few care if strats are hit

[bustr]

Be carful with people not caring if strats are hit. If the ability to drop the strats down to "0" was made so easy that it only took say, 12 bomber boxes getting over target to knock them "All" out. Players would more frequently ask each other why it was taking so long for their fighter hanger to come back up. Like that initial shock from discovering just how important a single M3 with base supplies suddenly became to thwarting a town capture. Now looking for M3 or dropping the vehical hanger at the "spawn from" base is SOP to missions. We pay attention these days. 

Time frame in this game is very important. If the strats could be taken down completely inside of the 4 hours of prime time. Say during the first 1-2 hours. And the same people could then see frustrated players angry about fighter hangers, along with not being able to defend across a front they are actively bombing down fighter hangers. Strats would become very important.

This would never be considered by HTC, because then the game would be focused on destroying and defending the strats. But, it's not something that would take a game rewrite. Just an arena setting for strat hardness. Proportionally to that, resupply would have to accomplish a bit more per drop. Which might make ambushing resupplyers an important and fun activity. Then the country with the most players would have a real advantage. Attack, defense, and supply would have bodies. While the lower number sides would suffer. As is, yes strats are not important and only attack and defense matter much. Unless Hitech decided to change the game's focus from "Combat Simulator" to "Strategic War Game".

Lately I've seen the impact of very slow rebuild times on the ability to defend, combined with masterful leverage of the dt command. So far I've not seen many realizing the connection between their fun and how resupply of the strats affects them on defense. The bomber guys seem to be the only ones who care with their fighter guys reaping the coincidental benefits of better vulching due to fighter hangers staying down longer.

I'm surprised no one has asked for a resupply delivery multiplier to help low numbers countries make up for the superior effect more players give to bomber operations against strat versus fighter defense. Since this is a combat game and not a strategic war game. I almost wonder if the knights are in the position they are due to player flight to the other countries. With those players not realizing their country change decision is as much due to resource availability effecting their fun?

So in a way. As strats don't really matter to most. Zone bases probably don't either. Unless you make them a painful or highly rewarding fun reality of game play inside of 4 hours of prime time game play. As they are now, an annoying pulled muscle a few times a week that might have slowly helped redefine country populations in the game.

       

[waystin2]

Adding another +1 to this since the whining and complaining that I got on country vox for recapturing a Knights field that the Bishop held.  Significance?  It kept our strats in the rear.  God forbid if we had to fight them red guys.   Took it anyway. 

[bozon]

We do not need zones.

The trigger to move the strats to the rear should be simply the loss of a field inside some radius of the strats, does not matter which.

The logic of moving the strats to the rear is that the other country will not be able to continuously bomb the factories and thus it must be at a minimum distance from an enemy field. That is all.

[SmokinLoon]

Unless if you have already taken out the ack towers (at least some of them,) as I stated, you won't make it to your target in a ftr. If you have been able to repeatedly make it to your target in a ftr, against strats that are 100% and you even survived to rtb, please share your secret with the rest of the community. I've participated in numerous attacks on strats once the cv gunners had their fill of fun. The only way I've ever seen anyone or myself able to be effective against strats is once they've been hit pretty good. What are you talking about, flying a pony at 20k, and dive bombing with your release below the 8.5kagl? If so I'd still doubt you didn't get hit by puffy. I know that is not what you said, but there is no making a single pass through strat ack, unless they're hit...so please share.  Furthermore, we have a different definition of a lot of damage I guess; when I do strat runs, ~20% of of 3-4 factories depending on what I'm flying is a minimum I like to see.

All three chess pieces on several maps are not constantly backed up to their strats. If you think the other two have been backed up to their strats lately, than you're not talking about the MA.

Actually, I'm talking about taking any fighter with any sort of high speed dive capability.  Grab an F6F loaded with a pair of 1k bombs, get to 10k, and go on in.  The "secret" is to hammer one of the factories on the corner and to dive through with the least amount of auto ack bearing down on you.  I dive those targets just like I do if I were diving on ord bunkers on a field.  Granted, 50% of the time my plane gets ripped up but I'd say at least half of the dive bomb missions I've done to the ammo factory or AAA factory I've made it home with very little damage.  On a very few % of the missions I get caught by ack and enough damage occurs that I dont make it back due to losing a wing, vert stab, etc. I don't remember ever going "puuf" in one those missions unlike floating over top in level bombers at any alt.  Nothing says "ouch" like losing a B29 at 30k to puufy ack.     

On that note, do the "wild weasel" missions, as we call them, is a lot of fun. We'll send in 2-4 fighters armed with rockets only to hammer ack towers on a certain part of the strat complex, then close behind bring in the 110's, Mossis, or other such dirt movers.  Good time. 

[VonMessa]

good wish, bad thread title


(Image removed from quote.)

God Bless America! 

I wonder if this post would be any funnier if Lusche was from America, instead of Germany, or if English was his primary language   

[MOSQ]

Bustr,
To clarify, strats don't affect hangars. The downtime for fighter hangars is always 15 minutes no matter how bad strats are down. Strats do affect Ammo bunkers, Ack, Radar, Troops and Supplies rebuild times.

[1WILDCAT]

I am not the only one that would like to see the old strat spawns be put back in use, while I can see the reason to have the main factories around the Capital/IC, now I would like to see the amount of supplies available be variable as to the total condition of the strats, and if those that are in outlying areas  are still in our hands and are able to produce the needed supplies, I would also like to see a change that if those that are new take some time to fly said supplies out to the areas needed reduceing the time some bases are 'damaged', limited in the ability to conduct full combat missions.
looking forward to your input as to this idea!.
1WILDCAT over/out

[RotBaron]

Actually, I'm talking about taking any fighter with any sort of high speed dive capability.  Grab an F6F loaded with a pair of 1k bombs, get to 10k, and go on in.  The "secret" is to hammer one of the factories on the corner and to dive through with the least amount of auto ack bearing down on you.  I dive those targets just like I do if I were diving on ord bunkers on a field.  Granted, 50% of the time my plane gets ripped up but I'd say at least half of the dive bomb missions I've done to the ammo factory or AAA factory I've made it home with very little damage.  On a very few % of the missions I get caught by ack and enough damage occurs that I dont make it back due to losing a wing, vert stab, etc. I don't remember ever going "puuf" in one those missions unlike floating over top in level bombers at any alt.  Nothing says "ouch" like losing a B29 at 30k to puufy ack.     

On that note, do the "wild weasel" missions, as we call them, is a lot of fun. We'll send in 2-4 fighters armed with rockets only to hammer ack towers on a certain part of the strat complex, then close behind bring in the 110's, Mossis, or other such dirt movers.  Good time. 

Sounds like good info there. I'll try the solo run sometime. Thanks.

[Lusche]

Not just a bump, but an additional argument to my cause.
The already described paradoxial and non-combat promoting zone base effect also leads to more, very unfortunate actions.

Knights had taken a Bish zone base, which retreated far away and into Me 163 territory, thus being largely safe from bombing. Nothing new so far... but:
Some Knights jumped to Bish side and first took the Bish zone base back (moving the strats back to the front) and then captured a Knight zone base (of course unopposed), triggering Knight strat retreat. Both with the clear and obvious intention of hurting the side they are flying on as much as possible. And there is nothing any Bishop could do about



(I removed the names, as this is not about the specific people, but the gameplay issue. Start your own thread if you want to 'call somebody out' and keep this one 'clean' pls.)

That's almost the same as if you could kill friendly town buildings and would switch sides to take advantage of it.
So I plead again: Please removed this flawed gameplay mechanism.