Author Topic: Dallas, 1 p.m.  (Read 3501 times)

Offline Hap

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2013, 07:22:19 PM »
xxx
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 07:42:00 PM by Hap »

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2013, 07:40:53 PM »
Bullets also do odd things when they hit bone. I'd imagine a bullet hitting the skull (bone close to the surface) would cause an almost explosive reaction, especially  large calibre at lower velocity.

Don't they show lots of fragmentation in the brain from the bullet?

Offline Gman

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2013, 08:03:43 PM »
Quote
Bullets also do odd things when they hit bone. I'd imagine a bullet hitting the skull (bone close to the surface) would cause an almost explosive reaction, especially  large calibre at lower velocity.

You're correct in saying that bullets behave in an unpredictable manner, especially once they pass through soft tissue and liquid, and then strike harder objects like bone, however the head is a different media than the rest of the human body, as the skull is right under a tight thin layer of skin.  Ask any mortician, pathologist, or even soldier/cop/contractor/etc who has seen a lot of head shots, and invariably they will say the same thing:  Nearly all entry wounds are small, almost as though they were done with a drill, while the entry wounds, if they exist, which is typical, are somewhat unpredictable depending on the ammunition type and velocity.  The JFK Zapruder film is very, very typical of a small to medium size rifle bullet entry and exit wound, at least one that isn't a contact wound, but one from medium range.

I still think the best evidence I've seen is the recent work done regarding the Secret Service agent having an AD/ND and striking JFK in the head from about 9 or 10 yards away with an M16.  Many people saw the M16, and it is in several photographs as well.  Also, many people at ground level in the following cars smelled gunpowder strongly, something that wouldn't be possible with the winds that day from the book depository, or the fenceline by the grassy knoll.  It also explains the time factor, as it is extremely unlikely Oswald could have fired 3 shots in such a short time for 2 hits, yet 2 shots for 1 hit anyone with some rifle skill can do.  I'm not saying there wasn't a conspiracy of some kind, just that the shots could have come from the depository, as well as ground level from close behind the President as well.

I've seen guys who are better trained and have far, far more experience with small arms then the Secret Service make mistakes, especially under fire, stress, and when lacking sleep/rest.  I also believe that the area, position, and trajectory of the 2nd shot to the head is a hard sell from an elevated position, where as it's an easy sell from ground level.  This being the case, where could this other shooter have been, and not been easily seen after firing?  The investigators recently tried to find a spot where this could have come from, and the only reasonable place is the following car.

I can see why they would cover this up at the time - It's a pretty horrible thing to admit that the best guards in the world failed, and not only failed, but also greatly contributed to their protectee's demise.  Just think how horrible it would have been if that's what happened.  Some dork gets a hit on the President, and then the SS plants an accidental round in his head.  Think of how the rest of the world, particularly the Soviet Union would have viewed this.  The USA would have seemed very weak to them, although this wouldn't have been the case IMO.  That fact could have had all kinds of negative repercussions.

Anyhow, watch the recent special regarding the Secret Service AD/ND theory, it did more to convince me then anything else so far, even though I've always strongly believed shot 2 was an exit wound through the front of the head, not an entry.  Like I said, having seen a few head shots with rifle and the odd pistol round, the entry wounds have never, not once, made several square inches of head explode on the entry side by my observation.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 08:11:02 PM by Gman »

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2013, 08:17:49 PM »
Gman, can you post a link or give the proper name of the program? I've never heard of this.

I have heard and seen the enhanced video of which the driver half turns around and shoots Kennedy with a pistol. I think the final answer by most is that Oswald wasn't it, at least wasn't the only one. I remain convinced Oswald was nothing but a patsy and had nothing to do with it. Many patsies throughout history.

This is something that fascinates me. There were many very powerful interests that benefited from Kennedy being killed. In politics almost nothing happens by chance. Frequently not as designed but rarely by complete random chance.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2013, 08:20:51 PM »
The TV program is called "The Smoking Gun." Don't know if it will be on YouTube or LiveLeak or whatever since it's relatively new, copyright owners might still actually be interested in protecting their ownership.

The book it's based on is "Mortal Error."
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Hap

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2013, 08:27:43 PM »
Check out PBS' website.  Just viewed the video on Cronkite. It is estimable.  Starting the 2nd about Cold Case Files, but I fear it will be sensational and full of blather.  Hope PBS proves me wrong.

Offline Shifty

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2013, 08:54:37 PM »
I have heard and seen the enhanced video of which the driver half turns around and shoots Kennedy with a pistol.

So if you have seen this video do you think the driver shot him?


Below is a photo of the secret service agent in question that supposedly shot the president by accident in yet another conspiracy theory.




Do you really think if the man just accidentally discharged his rifle none of the other agents would be reacting to it or relieving him of it?
If you accidentally discharged a weapon in close quarters while part of any law enforcement or military detail you would be the center of
attention and more than likely getting your donut kicked.


There is an interesting documentary called  The Kennedy Detail on Discovery this month. It has interviews of the men in the detail as they tell their stories.
A few of these guys were in the very car in the photo above. Mthrockmor I'm not responding to you to poke fun at you or imply anything negative. There
was a time I held some of your beliefs. However the more I read and the more conspiracy theories that float out the more it becomes apparent at least
to me that Oswald acted alone. It is human nature to believe that a great man like John F Kennedy could not be snuffed out of existence by a loser like
Oswald. Unfortunately that is just not true. Never underestimate the damage a frustrated under achiever can inflict on society when he decides to extract his revenge.
I do find this thread interesting though and hope you continue to give your points of view. I may or may not agree with them but I do find the subject interesting.  :salute
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 09:25:03 PM by Shifty »

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Offline Gman

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2013, 10:04:11 PM »
Shifty, I have seen dozens of videos of LE having ND's, there is a video on utube of them I'm trying to find right now, and none of the officers in any of them disarmed the person responsible, not once.  Usually they just reholstered and stood there looking sheepish.  We can't know how the SS at the time reacted, as there isn't video of this, and the whole point is they covered it up if in fact it DID happen that way, so who knows what they really did if that agent in fact had an AD/ND and hit JFK in the noodle.

If you read the book or watch the program mentioned a couple posts above, it deals with all your points.  Ballistics show that the 2nd shot came from a shot from ground level, and again, the evidence in the recent investigation regarding this is very compelling to anyone with any knowledge about ballistics and shooting.  I agree with you regarding Oswald, especially if you consider that the 2nd fatal shot wasn't fired by him at all, but was the result of an accident.  As strongly as you feel that a regular guy like Oswald is capable of doing this, it's just as strong a fact that even the best trained people have accidents with firearms, especially under stress.  As I've said twice now, Oswald's feet becomes far less difficult if you look at the evidence regarding the 2nd shot, and that it could have come from the following vehicle, in fact, almost had to have, considering the evidence that the shot came from an almost level trajectory.  Firing 2 shots and getting one hit from that range in that time frame, any decent rifleman could accomplish, even with that crappy Carcano.  There is also interviews and info about the SS agent with the M16 that you would find pretty interesting I think, if you either read the book, or watch the program, or both.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 10:06:36 PM by Gman »

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2013, 10:56:23 PM »
I'll look for this video. As for the picture with the M-16, I've never even seen it. With the theory of the driver reaching over his shoulder to shot the President, I don't believe it. I've just heard it and seen the enhanced Zapruder film. It does not make it clear and very likely the driver is looking over his shoulder in response to the first bullet.

Always happy to learn more and get better information.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline RotBaron

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2013, 11:59:49 PM »

There is an interesting documentary called  The Kennedy Detail on Discovery this month. It has interviews of the men in the detail as they tell their stories.
A few of these guys were in the very car in the photo above. Mthrockmor I'm not responding to you to poke fun at you or imply anything negative. There
was a time I held some of your beliefs. However the more I read and the more conspiracy theories that float out the more it becomes apparent at least
to me that Oswald acted alone. It is human nature to believe that a great man like John F Kennedy could not be snuffed out of existence by a loser like
Oswald. Unfortunately that is just not true. Never underestimate the damage a frustrated under achiever can inflict on society when he decides to extract his revenge.
I do find this thread interesting though and hope you continue to give your points of view. I may or may not agree with them but I do find the subject interesting.  :salute

A lot of your logic has been that conspiracy is more fun than the truth therefore, it is not a conspiracy. Taking into account all of the other suspicious deaths and assassinations of the time period, it would be rather strange if a lot of conspiracies did not arise. However, I find what is a wild idea is the lone gunman theory. A single destitute man lacking motive is responsible for the most notorious crime in history, that is considerably harder to believe than any conspiracy and much more fanciful.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 12:03:35 AM by RotBaron »
They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2013, 03:57:01 AM »
So if you have seen this video do you think the driver shot him?


Below is a photo of the secret service agent in question that supposedly shot the president by accident in yet another conspiracy theory.

(Image removed from quote.)


Do you really think if the man just accidentally discharged his rifle none of the other agents would be reacting to it or relieving him of it?
If you accidentally discharged a weapon in close quarters while part of any law enforcement or military detail you would be the center of
attention and more than likely getting your donut kicked.


There is an interesting documentary called  The Kennedy Detail on Discovery this month. It has interviews of the men in the detail as they tell their stories.
A few of these guys were in the very car in the photo above. Mthrockmor I'm not responding to you to poke fun at you or imply anything negative. There
was a time I held some of your beliefs. However the more I read and the more conspiracy theories that float out the more it becomes apparent at least
to me that Oswald acted alone. It is human nature to believe that a great man like John F Kennedy could not be snuffed out of existence by a loser like
Oswald. Unfortunately that is just not true. Never underestimate the damage a frustrated under achiever can inflict on society when he decides to extract his revenge.
I do find this thread interesting though and hope you continue to give your points of view. I may or may not agree with them but I do find the subject interesting.  :salute

If the guy with the M16 really accidentally shot the president, imagine what must be going on in his head in the picture :D
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Offline Shifty

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2013, 06:37:50 AM »
A lot of your logic has been that conspiracy is more fun than the truth therefore, it is not a conspiracy. Taking into account all of the other suspicious deaths and assassinations of the time period, it would be rather strange if a lot of conspiracies did not arise. However, I find what is a wild idea is the lone gunman theory. A single destitute man lacking motive is responsible for the most notorious crime in history, that is considerably harder to believe than any conspiracy and much more fanciful.

How do you figure he was lacking motive? He was not destitute, he worked in the building he commit ed the crime from. He owned both the weapon that killed the president and the weapon that killed officer Tibet's. His prints were on both. I find it a wild idea that some of you can accept one conspiracy theory and when it was proved wrong or at least very unlikely you can quickly jump to another.  At one point mthrockmor says... "the bullet clearly entered the back of the skull and exited the front. even the examination of the brain showed that..." Followed by his immediate interest in the accidental discharge of a secret service agents AR-15 behind the president. If you're so convinced the man was shot from the front how can you embrace so quickly he was shot from behind? The only answer I have for this kind of thinking is.. You desperately want it to be a conspiracy. Idiots with axes to grind were all over the place in the 60s. Neither Kennedy should have died the way they did, nor should have Martin Luther King. All three were gunned down by goofballs, as was Wallace and later John Lennon and Ronald Reagen. Just saying  :)

Shifty, I have seen dozens of videos of LE having ND's, there is a video on utube of them I'm trying to find right now, and none of the officers in any of them disarmed the person responsible, not once.  Usually they just reholstered and stood there looking sheepish.  We can't know how the SS at the time reacted, as there isn't video of this, and the whole point is they covered it up if in fact it DID happen that way, so who knows what they really did if that agent in fact had an AD/ND and hit JFK in the noodle.

If you read the book or watch the program mentioned a couple posts above, it deals with all your points.  Ballistics show that the 2nd shot came from a shot from ground level, and again, the evidence in the recent investigation regarding this is very compelling to anyone with any knowledge about ballistics and shooting.  I agree with you regarding Oswald, especially if you consider that the 2nd fatal shot wasn't fired by him at all, but was the result of an accident.  As strongly as you feel that a regular guy like Oswald is capable of doing this, it's just as strong a fact that even the best trained people have accidents with firearms, especially under stress.  As I've said twice now, Oswald's feet becomes far less difficult if you look at the evidence regarding the 2nd shot, and that it could have come from the following vehicle, in fact, almost had to have, considering the evidence that the shot came from an almost level trajectory.  Firing 2 shots and getting one hit from that range in that time frame, any decent rifleman could accomplish, even with that crappy Carcano.  There is also interviews and info about the SS agent with the M16 that you would find pretty interesting I think, if you either read the book, or watch the program, or both.

Gman I started watching the show about Cronkite would have liked to finish it. Until George Clooney and Harry Reasoner accused Dallas of being the most racist place in America in the 1960s. The tone and agenda was set at that point as far as I was concerned and it wasn't worth my time to watch it. Dallas was never Alabama or Mississippi and I wont waste my time watching Hollywood Hacks paint a whole city to fit their own personal ignorance bias or conspiracy.  :salute

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2013, 07:13:04 AM »
10.5 g (162 gr) RN    700 m/s (2,300 ft/s)    2,572 J (1,897 ft·lbf)

Cite your link. From memory the ammo used was Norma/Western commercial loads and commercial loaders usually under load WW2 milsurp rifle ammo out of fear the weapon may be unsound. Perhaps the actual military round used by the Italians pushed the bullet that fast but the ammo used by, supposedly, Oswalds short barreled Carcano did not. The way you pasted that leads me to believe you got that from wikipedia or the like. Please dont waste our time with such links. I could easily go into it and make it go 4,000 fps.

Quote
the bullet clearly entered the back of the skull and exited the front. even the examination of the brain showed that...

I never said it didnt.

Quote
This is something that fascinates me. There were many very powerful interests that benefited from Kennedy being killed. In politics almost nothing happens by chance. Frequently not as designed but rarely by complete random chance.

Oh you mean the head of the CIA who was fired by JFK and ends up being put ON the commission investigating his murder? Or the young congressman from MI. nobody had ever heard of who later became President?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 07:22:40 AM by Rich46yo »
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2013, 09:14:26 AM »
Cite your link. From memory the ammo used was Norma/Western commercial loads and commercial loaders usually under load WW2 milsurp rifle ammo out of fear the weapon may be unsound. Perhaps the actual military round used by the Italians pushed the bullet that fast but the ammo used by, supposedly, Oswalds short barreled Carcano did not. The way you pasted that leads me to believe you got that from wikipedia or the like. Please dont waste our time with such links. I could easily go into it and make it go 4,000 fps.
a lot of interesting information on the 6.5x52mm mannlicher-carcano rifle and ammunition readily available...

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Misc/6.5x52%20Mannlicher-Carcano/6.5mm%20Carcano.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5x52_M-C.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=0pSA2xVGZVYC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=6.5x52mm+ballistics&source=bl&ots=iRbd9rH1gv&sig=9KP9znbKC3l4o42hOf9acWHAeVI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7jmGUuiOG-fLsAS15YL4AQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=6.5x52mm%20ballistics&f=false

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Offline Gman

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Re: Dallas, 1 p.m.
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2013, 03:34:19 PM »
Regardless of what happened, I think it really sucked for the USA.  Kennedy might not be from my current "preferred" party, but at the time it was far different.  Kennedy loved guns, thought everyone should have them, including minorities who at the time had a lot of roadblocks in that department.  We have the AR15 today do in some part to his patronage of the early Stoner and other rifles, the first M16's being Kennedy's favorite, which he used to shoot floating crates form his favorite yacht.  He certainly wasn't without faults, but by today's standards, a good American IMO.