MK 108 experts, please help!

[bozon]

The difference between the 13 mm and tatter is not the drop of the bullets - it is the velocity. In deflection shots if the 13mm is 1.5 times faster it means you need to pull 1.5 times more lead with the 30mm. In tracking shots (while pulling G), the fire arch of the 30mm is MUCH more curved till you can fit an entire plane between the two streams of bullets.

The reason not to fire the 13mm is a psychological one. If you see hit strikes you will try to maintain them. In your mind this is a positive feedback even though for your purpose it is negative because it.means your tatter is off. In the mossie I find my gunnery is better if I do not fire the 303s. While the difference between 303 and hispanos is much smaller than in the case of the 109, it still is significant in tracking shots.

[JunkyII]

I can't watch the films right now but I consider myself a good shot with Tators...

I personally like shooting the MGs with the 108 because at the range I shoot fighters at, the dispersion of the rounds doesn't effect it so much but does put you generally in the right spot following tracers.

Fact is with the tator you need to set up the shot because it is not forgivening at all. Look up Grizz's write up about how he set up Stator shots....probably best I've seen.

Best practice I can think of for learning the 108 is shooting single 30s at a time......that's a real challenge.

[mechanic]

aim high because the nose is lower than the gunsight, that's my only real advice. If you're shooting exactly at convergence then that is not a problem but we rarely get to shoot exactly at convergence. For closer than convergence shots aim high and keep the plane smooth, any jerking around and the rounds are going to go all over the place. Aim high!

[Lusche]

The difference between the 13 mm and tatter is not the drop of the bullets - it is the velocity.

To illustrate this: time vs distance of Mk 108 and MG 131:


(data taken from original test data)

At the time the MG 131 bullet has reached ~250m, the Mk 108 shell is still at ~200m

[Ardy123]

I don't shoot the tater unless I'm within 200 yards.... get in close or scare them with the 13mm until you can get in close

[Wiley]

My philosophy on the 30mm is, always shoot unloaded.  If you're pulling any significant G's with it, do not expect to hit.  Unload, and put a stream where he's going to be.  At first, don't be concerned too too much with with conserving ammo.  Put out the burst, and get a feel for the timing for when it hits him.  As you get a feel for the timing, you can shorten the burst up to conserve ammo.  As mentioned, you need to lead people by 50% more than you do with your 13mm's.

The 30mm is at its best with a hard-turning opponent pulling across your nose 100m or less in front of you.  Big target, you barely have to lead them.  Close crossing shots are what you want to set up for if at all possible.  The low velocity and dispersion make it a crapshoot beyond about 300m.  Given the choice, I don't pull the trigger unless they're within about 100-150m.

Wiley.

[bustr]

With Hitech updating the target command to (.target range heading azimuth), you can sit on the runway now and get a static detailed view of your dispersion patterns. I tested the K4 offline on the NE runway of NDisles at A1 for Mk108 dispersion at ranges from 100-600 at every 100 yards. 50 yards is included to show how quickly the MK108's dispersion increases with range. I'm using the azimuth to center the target to the gunsight at every range. I'm firing average 50 rounds to create a dispersion cloud. It appears there is a slight left hand density in the cloud. Rheinmetall-Borsig testing showed the projectile had a spin drift. Or maybe this is just coincidence unless HTC has the same document I do.

.target range(100-600) Heading(45) Azimuth(12.87-12.10)

Example: .target 100 45 12.45

Bf109 K4 MK108 30mm

Range----Dispersion----Azimuth

50yd-----2.5ftx1.8ft-----12.87
100yd------6ftx6ft-------12.45
200yd-----10ftx9ft.------12.25
300yd-----18ftx15ft-----12.15
400yd-----20ftx20ft-----12.12
500yd-----30ftx25.5ft---12.10
600yd-----36ftx27ft-----12.10

As you can see, the claims by talented tater shooters that the hardest shot for them is dead 6 at almost any range has some validity based on the dispersion values.

Ultimately it's not the drop, or time to target that makes hitting another fast moving fighter so hard in the game. It's the same problem 109 pilots had in the real war with the single MK108. The MK108 was designed to shoot down slow moving level bombers with 60-100ft wing spans. So the dispersion was not as much of a problem with all of the surface area to hit on bombers opposed to small, fast, maneuvering fighters.

For you 109 enthusiasts who like to keep things historic. Try this challenge. Setting the HUB cannon of any 109 to 150 is effectively setting it to the zero line of the engine like it was bolted in place in real life. This is true for all of the fighters in the game with cannon mounted in the engine. Then fly the K4 to shoot down fighters and see what kind of problems you have to over come.   

[Ardy123]

For you 109 enthusiasts who like to keep things historic. Try this challenge. Setting the HUB cannon of any 109 to 150 is effectively setting it to the zero line of the engine like it was bolted in place in real life. This is true for all of the fighters in the game with cannon mounted in the engine. Then fly the K4 to shoot down fighters and see what kind of problems you have to over come.   

I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I fly with the hub cannon at 150, but not for historical reasons, because it works.

[McShark]

I absolutely love the G14 because of the option to toss that crappy MK 108 out and put in the super lovely MG 151/20! I really should fly it more than I do.

Why is that? I hear a few people say they do it because they want to see where their rounds are going, but that's with tracers on and I fly with tracers off. Does it really matter if I shoot with 13mms? Is there some hidden secret that the 13mms somehow affect the 30mms aim?


I think you're talking about when you pass under me from my left to right. What I did was pull up, dropped some flaps, chopped throttle to almost 0, and stood on my right rudder. The 109s are very good at just pulling right around this way, but it bleeds lots of E.

I hear lead is the biggest problem in the K4 all the time. In the film I am actually leading the plane more than I would normally be if I was in any other plane. The first shot for example he is inside 200 yards away from me. I pull enough lead that he disappears under my nose and my 13mm's hit around his canopy and left wing. Where did my 30mm's go? Even with 350 convergence did they just drop straight off under him? Did they just never reach the target? How much more lead am I suppose to pull on this cannon?

Latrobe,

I am no expert at all with the 108 and still learning the plane.


Maybe you find this helpful.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280043.msg3529104.html#msg3529104

Nice writeup by grizz 

Regarding the quotes:

I can't hit anything with 13mm and 30 mm fired simultaneously. With or without tracers. I get confused and usually the 13 mm hit, the 30 does not.

Unloading your plane is also an issue. Only fire at LOW g or the bullet drop gets insane. For me thats the hardest part. Any g implied while firing makes any hit a lucky one.

In the posts by morf and bustr you also find the answers to the dispersion. I tried any available conversion and I am back at 250 now and I will stick with it although I do like to try out bustr's challenge....

If I fire a tater I have my opponent within 200 and still miss a lot 

What also helped me was turn off tracers, go to TA or offline, turn on LCG and fire at any angle you can get. Film the sorties and look them back in very slow motion.

The film viewer shows the range where you prefer to find a shot and it helps to put the plane to structural markings instead of only aiming with your gunsight.

If you need a target drone in TA, let me know.

<S>

[Latrobe]

I have tried grizz's method, and I just suck at it. I don't have the brain power to calculate all those variables all at once. Grizz really is a master of the 30mm!

I have had a few successes recently with the 108 cannon. It's probably just pure dumb luck like it has always been, but I'll keep at it and see what happens. I really love the K4 and don't want to throw it away just because of its gun. Plus, Ratio's new skin for it is coming next tour and I really want to fly it! 

[Wiley]

I have tried grizz's method, and I just suck at it. I don't have the brain power to calculate all those variables all at once. Grizz really is a master of the 30mm!

I have had a few successes recently with the 108 cannon. It's probably just pure dumb luck like it has always been, but I'll keep at it and see what happens. I really love the K4 and don't want to throw it away just because of its gun. Plus, Ratio's new skin for it is coming next tour and I really want to fly it! 

I more or less use the Grizz method, without the level of polish he has.  It really works, but it does take a lot of practice.  One thing I find helps is to more or less set up as though you're trying to ram him, except actually try to fly through a couple plane lengths behind him.

Wiley.

[McShark]

I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I fly with the hub cannon at 150, but not for historical reasons, because it works.

Ardy,


without going too far off topic, I tried this yesterday in DA and it is a miracle!  

How come any other convergence makes it so much harder?

[Fulcrum]

Strangely, I find shooting the 30mm in the 152 MUCH easier than the K4.  I am getting to the point where I can usually hit targets 400+ yards out fairly regularly in a 152 but similar shot in K4 and tater is nowhere to be found.  Might be due to the fact I seem to have an easier job getting into good firing positions with the 152, or it could be mental given how furstrated I've become with the K4 over the years. 

[JunkyII]

It's the firing position your in most likely due to the different fighting styles of the birds. I fly both planes and would say I'm a lot more accurate in the 152 then the K4 just because this reason. High speed moves are a friend of the 152 not the K4

[Fulcrum]

Ya...that makes sense...tho' I seem to be able to hit things when I'm slow as well.  To me, the 152 just seems to be a more stable gun platform than the K4.

Err....well..."stable" until you apply too much rudder or a teensy bit much AoA and flip the damn thing on its back / put it in a flat spin.  She's a touchy b___h at times...kinda like my wife!