Author Topic: China pushing Japan again.  (Read 1997 times)

Offline Gman

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China pushing Japan again.
« on: November 24, 2013, 01:31:00 AM »
China established Air Defense Identification Zone over East China Sea that overlaps Japan’s one

http://theaviationist.com/2013/11/24/china-new-adiz/

It should be pretty obvious that China is rearming at an incredible rate for a reason.  China's actions in the last decade or so show that they are being more and more provocative with their defense posture in addition to other pretty overt actions and incidents.  This latest one is outright brazen.

Setting an "air defense zone" over top of another potentially hostile nation's already existing zone, and saying "oh ya, so there, cross here and you have to obey our rules or be subject to force" is pretty crazy even for the Chinese.  After years of moving in a calculated manner towards expansion of their powers and military, this one is I think one of the first really, really brazen pushes to see what kind of response they get.

I wonder what Japan will do next?

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2013, 01:37:01 AM »
This should get very interesting to say the least.
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2013, 06:38:51 AM »
Yes this is just what the world needs, another conflict.  :rolleyes:
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2013, 06:49:16 AM »
Japan's stuck with a SDF, the Japs won't be able to do anything but protest.
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Offline zack1234

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2013, 06:58:05 AM »
I believe after they have dealt with Japan the USA will be next :old:
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Offline ozrocker

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2013, 07:55:58 AM »
Wondering how both sides will react to this.
Will Japan fly into area without China's approval?
Will China shoot down A/C, or just warn?
All yet to be seen. A scary situation.



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Offline GScholz

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2013, 10:52:21 AM »
Better hurry and get those F-35s off the line quick. Japan's going to need them.
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Offline Maverick

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2013, 11:03:22 AM »
Just another step in China's "conquest by inches" strategy. They have been slowly but inexorably taking over more and more of the Pacific for years. As long as there is no serious objection mounted and by that I mean outright force, there will be no backing down by their govt. in this regard. They know as long as they can continue to expand like this there is no reason to have a full out conflict as long as they can take what they want at a snail's pace. It is the opposite of the blitz, but no less effective. The UN is no threat so there is nothing to stop them so far.
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Offline zack1234

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2013, 11:23:32 AM »
We should attack now!

The the best form of defense :old:

They have been planning this for years and I for one am not blind to their out right aggression :old:

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Offline Lusche

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2013, 11:57:18 AM »
We should attack now!


Aren't you Chinese?  :noid
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2013, 12:26:45 PM »
Better hurry and get those F-35s off the line quick. Japan's going to need them.

Why?  There are F-22's in Japan that are far better aircraft...
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Offline zack1234

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2013, 12:46:48 PM »

Aren't you Chinese?  :noid

You know very well I am from Uganda :old:

The Chinese are goading us and need to taught a good sharp lesson !
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Offline Gemini

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2013, 01:08:22 PM »
I agree with zack  :old:

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2013, 01:15:15 PM »
You know very well I am from Uganda :old:

The Chinese are goading us and need to taught a good sharp lesson !

I agree. In fact I whole heartedly support anyone who believes the same to march their kid to a recruiters office to "get some". Most of all our allies, like Japan, who spend about 1/3rd of their GNP on their own security as we do. I think they should triple their defense spending and institute the draft on all their 18yo's.

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Offline Gman

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Re: China pushing Japan again.
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2013, 01:24:55 PM »
If you lived in Japan you may actually feel that way Zack, all kidding aside.

It would be like China putting a grid overtop of the the waters over the ilse of Man near the UK or wherever you live right now, and say all commercial and military aircraft now have to report to them, file flight plans with them, and obey all their orders or face interception and force.

I think even the Queen may object to that in some form or another.  Indeed!

Japan may have a "self defense" force only, but I know from my time there they still have a very martial culture.  They are obsessed with military things, and the circles I was in (kendo) years ago had me bombarded with questions about all things do to with western military.  Their politics are pretty weird, even by US standards, but history shows that Japan needs only a strike on the match to become a very scary monster, so I wouldn't be surprised either way - Japan laying down and taking this, or getting angry and doing something about it.  Japan does have a pretty good air force, US trained and supported, as well as a lot of built in house/country technology in things such as radar and weapons systems.  I'm sure some of the US fighter pilots here have worked with their Japanese counterparts and could comment more accurately, but things I've read doesn't suggest them to be awful or anything.

On the other hand now, China has fielded and is currently testing some pretty impressive new fighters, considering what they were flying only a decade ago.  They have around 200 SU 27/30 variants, 140 in house copies of the SU27 with another 100 building, 200 of the very good J10's.  The "Stealth" fighters will be here soon as well, the J31 and J20 both most likely, and that will change the balance quite a bit in the area in the skies.  China also just publicly and successfully tested their first stealth weaponized drone this week, an interesting coincidence.  There is also the new J16 fighter, in the SU  class of strike fighters, and it'll be no slouch either.  China is moving forward VERY fast, the J16 was pretty much announced only once it was already in full squadron service.  It has an AESA radar and a very, very long range IR missile system, but looks like it'll be optimized for naval strike and long range patrol.  From their deployments it looks like they will be used in naval and long range operations in the disputed area.  They've only got 24 of them, but it's still a pretty impressive leap forward that they can build their own copies of Russian stuff that actually works pretty well now with all the nice stolen information they've gotten from the USA in the last ten years.

There have been a lot of interceptions in the last year by both sides, and by Taiwan and China as well.  Like Maverick said, and I said as well earlier, China is taking the long road, as is their tradition and culture - they have been very patient in this expansion of both military capability and on the map as well, but this latest incident is IMO a real departure from this and a push to the limit to see what they can get away with.  There have been many incidents with Chinese and Japanese ships in the recent months as well, mainly a bunch of warnings issued and close shaves.  Time will tell if China has the ability to stage fighters out that far and support them there, I have no idea on their tanking, radar support, and ESM support capabilities in practice, just that they have the aircraft to do it.  I'm sure they have been practicing this as well, again, a lot of good information in those US defense department computers that have been compromised by spies, at least according to the media.  I know Mace was eluding a while back that China had slipped guys into the US Navy as enlisted men in order to learn and observe everything about CVN operations, and that China had actual copies of all the MANOPS for various things about operating on carriers.  They seem to be learning very fast in that department with their first CVN, and are building more of these as well.  

It'll be interesting to see how the Chinese Navy plays into this new "area" they are claiming.  Like their air force, they've really ramped up their stuff in the last decade.  I amazes me to think that back in the 90's, long after the cold war, China was flying Mig21's and had crappy tin cans for ships.   Compare that to now.  http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/ffg.htm  is a great site for Chinese naval capability, and it's pretty scary stuff when you look at some of the numbers.  Over 200 of those fast little stealthy boats with 8 long range high speed low alt cruise missiles.  Even 50 of them would be 400 missiles for a CVN group to try and deal with.  
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 01:27:46 PM by Gman »