Wing Man Real and in AH

[bozon]

Very true that effective communication is key to success.  From experience, a 2-4 K spread simply takes time to get to the other guy when he gets tagged.  Typically, unless the attacker blows the first pass, the wingman gets shot before the other can fly the longer distance to engage.

With a wide spread like that and the pair not line abreast, it's fairly easy to sneak up from low deep six on the trailer and take care of business because most players don't belly check. 

This is why we are the Loose Deuce. We do not fly formation except in transit and do not have strict rules in combat. We don't even formally divide into pairs. Our method is much more about a shared situational awareness through good communication, and knowing what to do in various situations.

With good SA and experienced players we recognize someone is in a bad situation long before it gets to the "oh @#$% 400 yards on my tail!" stage. Much less than 2k separation will often not leave you without enough room to maneuver into position to help your wingman unless you kept formation the whole time. Also, having separation gives the enemy false hope that he can single out one of us, only to fall into a trap. If your wingman is close, the bandit can threaten both of you - in which case it is not clear who is the defending and who is the attacking wingman till he is very close. Alternatively he may simply be scared away so not to fall into an obvious 2v1 situation.

[Puma44]

This is why we are the Loose Deuce. We do not fly formation except in transit and do not have strict rules in combat. We don't even formally divide into pairs. Our method is much more about a shared situational awareness through good communication, and knowing what to do in various situations.

With good SA and experienced players we recognize someone is in a bad situation long before it gets to the "oh @#$% 400 yards on my tail!" stage. Much less than 2k separation will often not leave you without enough room to maneuver into position to help your wingman unless you kept formation the whole time. Also, having separation gives the enemy false hope that he can single out one of us, only to fall into a trap. If your wingman is close, the bandit can threaten both of you - in which case it is not clear who is the defending and who is the attacking wingman till he is very close. Alternatively he may simply be scared away so not to fall into an obvious 2v1 situation.

Well, as they say, " technique only". 

[earl1937]

Earl, you're misunderstanding the Thatch Weave. The wingman isn't behind the lead, he's abeam him.  Although originally intended as a defensive position, it eventually developed into what we now call Combat Spread which is considered both a defensive and offensive formation.  Separation between the friendly fighters is roughly equal to their turn diameter.  The abeam position allows both pilots to easily clear the other's six.

If an NME fighter is spotted behind the section but too far for the NME to attack a simple cross turn (each friendly fighter does a 180deg turn toward the other) will reverse the flight into the threat.  However, if the NME fighter is close to an attack position then he must chose which fighter to attack.  Again, both friendly fighters turn into each other but the goal isn't for both fighters to turn and face the threat.  Instead, the fighter being attacked is simply dragging the NME into a nose-to-nose confrontation with the other friendly fighter.  Once the two friendlies complete 90 degrees of turn they pass nose-to-nose and then reverse their turns to return to their original heading.  If the NME continues to attack then the friendlies just continue to weave giving one fighter opportunities for forward quarter shots (or as we say in AH, "HOs") on the NME.

Correct Sir and thank yu for setting me straight! I found a diagram of the "thach weave":

[Arlo]

http://arlogu3.wix.com/vf-17-jolly-rogers#!briefing-films

http://www.youtube.com/v/tPauUs6BG24

http://www.youtube.com/v/ULvHXDLmjCg

http://www.youtube.com/v/VhmqVJusngc

http://www.youtube.com/v/HGSgbFyZPmw

http://www.youtube.com/v/y_vAr_dXMp8

http://www.youtube.com/v/Iz8Q1yq-IxI

[Wiley]

If the NME continues to attack then the friendlies just continue to weave giving one fighter opportunities for forward quarter shots (or as we say in AH, "HOs") on the NME.

Per the diagram Earl posted and the way I've always employed it and seen it described, I never really saw it as a front quarter shot, I was generally around the 3-9 line when I was shooting at them.

It works quite well when you've got a cooperative bandit.

Wiley.

[Zoney]

On Sunday, while cruising in a 109K4 I happened on a pair of P51's slightly lower than me.  They kept their seperation as close to perfect as I have seen.  I must have tried a Dozen times to attack but each and every time the one left alone would be swinging around on me before I could have even got guns on his buddy.  I even tried the fake to one guy then snap back to the other. Got nuthin'. We had a nice little PM chat afterward even though I exited the fight when I could see it wasn't going to happen and they were bleeding my E away.  Wish I could remember your names, (old brain), but <S> you 2 again.  Feel free to chime in if it was you.  Was really really fun.

[Mace2004]

Per the diagram Earl posted and the way I've always employed it and seen it described, I never really saw it as a front quarter shot, I was generally around the 3-9 line when I was shooting at them.

It works quite well when you've got a cooperative bandit.

Wiley.

In theory, when the NME fighter sees the wingman turning into him he should come off the guy he's chasing and honor the threat by taking the wingman 180 out (i.e., neutralize him).  That would tend to make this more of a direct head-on attack.  If the guy isn't very bright and sticks with his original target he becomes predictable and gives the wingman both angles and position.

[Ripley]

On Sunday, while cruising in a 109K4 I happened on a pair of P51's slightly lower than me.  They kept their seperation as close to perfect as I have seen.  I must have tried a Dozen times to attack but each and every time the one left alone would be swinging around on me before I could have even got guns on his buddy.  I even tried the fake to one guy then snap back to the other. Got nuthin'. We had a nice little PM chat afterward even though I exited the fight when I could see it wasn't going to happen and they were bleeding my E away.  Wish I could remember your names, (old brain), but <S> you 2 again.  Feel free to chime in if it was you.  Was really really fun.

<S> Hartmann, that would be Paladin3 and I. That was a really fun fight and it was great to have it with a class act such as yourself!

the 4th FG prides ourselves in our ability to work together as a unit, opposed to going in every man for themselves. Yeah we catch flak for it occasionally, on how "you got lucky because your wingman saved ur butt blah blah blah" but that's really more of a compliment because that's what we do. We practice the shackles, the
TAC turns, combat spreads, active defense maneuvers, the cross reverse, etc. and we fly that way together in the MA. It really brings a lot more to the game, and is on its own a completely different level of playing. While I like to go it alone every once in a while into a furball, pairing with a wingman is where its at.

The really fun fights are the 2v2's where each pair is winging together, those make for some seriously awesome engagements.

[Ripley]

Per the diagram Earl posted and the way I've always employed it and seen it described, I never really saw it as a front quarter shot, I was generally around the 3-9 line when I was shooting at them.

It works quite well when you've got a cooperative bandit.

Wiley.

Wiley, Check out this youtube video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdPZU6BCqho

 At about 7:45 there starts a near perfect thatch weave that Buzurd and I pulled off on an F4u. Its a beautiful thing when it works correctly. Forgive the crazy talk and default sounds, this was a while ago.

[Puma44]

<S> Hartmann, that would be Paladin3 and I. That was a really fun fight and it was great to have it with a class act such as yourself!

the 4th FG prides ourselves in our ability to work together as a unit, opposed to going in every man for themselves. Yeah we catch flak for it occasionally, on how "you got lucky because your wingman saved ur butt blah blah blah" but that's really more of a compliment because that's what we do. We practice the shackles, the
TAC turns, combat spreads, active defense maneuvers, the cross reverse, etc. and we fly that way together in the MA. It really brings a lot more to the game, and is on its own a completely different level of playing. While I like to go it alone every once in a while into a furball, pairing with a wingman is where its at.

The really fun fights are the 2v2's where each pair is winging together, those make for some seriously awesome engagements.

Good for you guys!  The dedicated wingman and tactical flying works well doesn't it?

[Wiley]

In theory, when the NME fighter sees the wingman turning into him he should come off the guy he's chasing and honor the threat by taking the wingman 180 out (i.e., neutralize him).  That would tend to make this more of a direct head-on attack.  If the guy isn't very bright and sticks with his original target he becomes predictable and gives the wingman both angles and position.

Ah.  The few times I've been in position to employ it that they didn't cooperate they turned into me but I didn't go for the front quarter shot...  It might've been a more efficient solution than retaining my E and chandelling while my wingman reengaged him.  When I'm working a single bandit with my wingman I'm really stingy with my E.  My philosophy is to keep as much as I can while he bleeds his avoiding us until either I connect with one of my relatively high-E passes, or he's so bled out I feel confident I can saddle him and he won't be able to dodge.

Wiley, Check out this youtube video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdPZU6BCqho

 At about 7:45 there starts a near perfect thatch weave that Buzurd and I pulled off on an F4u. Its a beautiful thing when it works correctly. Forgive the crazy talk and default sounds, this was a while ago.

Oh yeah.  It's interesting to see how different people fly.  I tend to use the vertical a lot when I've got alt.  Thach weave I only tend to use when I'm down on the deck as for me it's an effective solution when you don't have 'down' to work with.

Gotta agree with you as well on the 2v2's.  Hartmann and I used to wing a lot and it was at its best when we had position to start working a crowd or when another dedicated wingpair showed up.

I still remember the one night right after one of the trainers had done a wingpair seminar, we went over to the main and went on a few sorties.  The area we were in had about 3 other pairs of red planes doing the same thing we were.  Fun was had by all.

It can kind of feel like seal clubbing when the two of you are working one bandit though unless it's a top 10% type guy.

Wiley.

[Zoney]

<S> Ripley & Paladin3.

Next time I'm winging with a squaddie, I'll shoot you a PM and we shall have a 2 on 2 encounter, sirs.

[Zoney]

<S> Wiley.  My old wingy!  We have hundreds of hours of flying as a pair bro.  I was at the point where I knew exactly what you were going to do.  My best memories are mostly as your wingman, I enjoyed every minute of it.

Many times it would come to this:

"Wiley, we have lost the advantage and we have many bandits inbound to crush us, we need to get out now."

"F it Zoney, I'm going to kill (insert plane here) first."

"Rgr Wiley, I'm back in, bring him left if ya can....."

[Wiley]

I was at the point where I knew exactly what you were going to do.

"Try to kill just one more" generally about summed it up.

Many times it would come to this:

"Wiley, we have lost the advantage and we have many bandits inbound to crush us, we need to get out now."

"F it Zoney, I'm going to kill (insert plane here) first."

"Rgr Wiley, I'm back in, bring him left if ya can....."

The high bandits were only 4k out...  I had time to kill the guy in front of me and avoid their first pass, then egress.  Really!

Definitely some of the best times I've had in game too man. 

Wiley.

[Scca]

<S> Wiley.  My old wingy!  We have hundreds of hours of flying as a pair bro.  I was at the point where I knew exactly what you were going to do.  My best memories are mostly as your wingman, I enjoyed every minute of it.

Many times it would come to this:

"Wiley, we have lost the advantage and we have many bandits inbound to crush us, we need to get out now."

"F it Zoney, I'm going to kill (insert plane here) first."

"Rgr Wiley, I'm back in, bring him left if ya can....."

So Zoney, how did you talk someone else into climbing to 35K?