Wing Man Real and in AH

[Randy1]

Our small squad sucks at wing man tactics.

I was watching a video on WW2 tactics.  There is always talk of the wing man staying with his partner.  I came away with the impression from this and other sources the wing man stayed very close to his fellow squad mate so he could watch for the pick as we call it in AH.

I have tried staying to close to my wingman in AH.  I can but at the cost of checking our six.  How in real life could a wing man follow his squad mate and still check six?  It is just as hard to follow someone you are trying to shoot as it is to follow a wing man.

What is the best flying arrangement in AH for lead and wing man?

[Max]

What prevents vox comms via squad channel?

I was taught a separation of 1.8K - 2.0K between wingies was SOP. I suppose it would depend on the given situation.

[Latrobe]

I don't wing very often, but the few times I've gotten serious about it I followed the 1-2K rule as well. I would generally fly very loose from my wing leader flying not perfectly on his flight path, but enough so that I stay within 2K. This allows me to finish off any plane he misses a shot on and flying loosely allows me to quickly check around for other dangers while my wing leader focuses on picking out targets to attack.

[Scca]

The AK's have been focusing on wing tactics in the recent months.  The best combination we have found is the loose deuce.  

The way this works is you maintain at least 800-1200 yards separation.  When on the offense, one plane will attack while the other watch's for other cons, and tries to set up the con for a kill if the "engaged" fighter misses.  If that happens, the "engaged" fighter switches places with the "free" fighter.  

In a defensive situation, frequently a single fighter will attack and because of your separation, he will have to choose between you and your wingman.  This allows the "free" fighter to engage the attacker while the "engaged" fighter maneuvers to assist.  Good communication is a must regardless. While we haven't perfected it, we are starting to see the benefit's.  

Of course once you are mired in a furball, it gets difficult to impossible as often times you are both being attacked.  Other tactics keep you out of that situation.  

[PFactorDave]

It's actually important for you not to be flying welded wing with your wingman.

Two planes that are basically flying in formation can be treated as a single enemy, in terms of defensive maneuvering.  Meaning, if I have two enemies attacking me, it is much easier for me to handle a pair of bad guys who are essentially flying together than it is to handle two enemies who are working together, but with some separation.

When one attacks, the second is there to watch for additional threats AND take advantage of a shot opportunity that may arise when his wingman misses a pass.

[Puma44]

Our small squad sucks at wing man tactics.

I was watching a video on WW2 tactics.  There is always talk of the wing man staying with his partner.  I came away with the impression from this and other sources the wing man stayed very close to his fellow squad mate so he could watch for the pick as we call it in AH.

I have tried staying to close to my wingman in AH.  I can but at the cost of checking our six.  How in real life could a wing man follow his squad mate and still check six?  It is just as hard to follow someone you are trying to shoot as it is to follow a wing man.

What is the best flying arrangement in AH for lead and wing man?

It takes a great deal of practice with a dedicated wingman.  This gets the two of you to a place to where you know each other's next move and what each other are thinking in a given situation.  It also requires a good working knowledge of BFM and tactical maneuvering (ACM).  Typically, there isn't a lot of coordinated tactical wing work in game since most fly "lone wolf".

[ntrudr]

I did a LOT of wing man flying in warbirds with a dedicated and real life Air Warrior, Sach.  A) you need to stay close enough to clear each other, usually 2.0 or so. B) you need to let some kills go so you can stay close, you have to keep the leader or attacker clear and not get drug away from him chasing a con.  The primary objective is for both planes to RTB, the second is for the attacker to get kills, and then switch roles for the wing to get kills.  It does take lots of time flying together and good communication over TS.  It is a real blast when you can get in a 2v4 fight and drag it out, kill all 4 cons using good tactics and RTB.

[SkyRock]

Our small squad sucks at wing man tactics.

I was watching a video on WW2 tactics.  There is always talk of the wing man staying with his partner.  I came away with the impression from this and other sources the wing man stayed very close to his fellow squad mate so he could watch for the pick as we call it in AH.

I have tried staying to close to my wingman in AH.  I can but at the cost of checking our six.  How in real life could a wing man follow his squad mate and still check six?  It is just as hard to follow someone you are trying to shoot as it is to follow a wing man.

What is the best flying arrangement in AH for lead and wing man?

the best is fox hound when attacking... 2k hover when assessing... when digressing the tit for tat emmel clear6...  the wingman is the eyes... 

[Brooke]

I think that in WWII, it was more common than not for wingmen to get separated from their leads in the course of swirling dogfights.

[PFactorDave]

I think that in WWII, it was more common than not for wingmen to get separated from their leads in the course of swirling dogfights.

I expect so.  FSO events with the icon distances turned way down often see groups separated easily.

[bacon8tr]

Scotty57 and I wing from time to time when he rotates through to Bish.  We usually stay with 1.5 to 2k of each other once visual is made with a con.  When in a furball it is easy to get seperated.  Vox communication is key when winging and when I am his wing I try to stay on his high six to maintain E in the event he gets bounced.  It's always a fun time 

[USCH]

Winging as a rule is about give and take. And about knowing your partner. When I wing, as stated 2k or so is a good start.

In our game it's almost more about being good "bait". Your enemy is not going to want to tipically engage 2 enemy. So one of you needs to hang his butt out a bit ( bruv) can confirm I'm pretty good bait. If the enemy is focused on the prize in front of him he doesn't see the second one coming.

As for the wingman, always make sure you are " holding" 100+ mph on your leader when your not playing bait. This can be done by having altitude, ( and that might make it that you need to be more than 2 k away) but its ok if you are directly over the fight.

Always be thinking in your head (if my leader gets reversed on, in his current engagement can I clear him in under 30 seconds) also be watching the fight, does it look like your leader is losing his advantage? If so start getting your speed up now, (dive) if things go well, no harm, climb back up. If it does go south, your already diving in.

Talking to each other as stated befor is key until you have gotten to a point that talking is just silly. And what I mean by this is, if your going left right up down or backwards you need to let each other know. Your leader wants to know you are right over the fight and ready to clear. He also wants to know that you have 18 bad guys all within icon range 4 outside icon, 4 with alt, and 2 that could be trouble in the next few min.
You as wingman need to inform the leader of the big picture outside so he can stay focused on the prize in his gunsights. When his time is upand he needs to break off, warn him early " you got about 20 seconds to get him befor this D-9 comes in.

This gives him fair warning that not only does he need to start aiming for the cockpit, but that he needs to start looking for the 190.

It's tough to say everything in just a message but I think the big things have been covered.
Don't stay too close, keep the leader informed of all things that could kill you both, if your 2 on one and he doesn't wanna fight, someone needs to be bait.

[Randy1]

I got called away so I am slow in replying.  Super information.  Just what we need to get started right in good basic wingman tactics.  We were trying to stay to close for sure and our communications is indeed lacking.

I have gotten burned by good wing man tactics.

I have this thread saved.

Thanks again for sharing ya'll's expertise.

[earl1937]

I got called away so I am slow in replying.  Super information.  Just what we need to get started right in good basic wingman tactics.  We were trying to stay to close for sure and our communications is indeed lacking.

I have gotten burned by good wing man tactics.

I have this thread saved.

Thanks again for sharing ya'll's expertise.

One thing I would recommend is using the "Thatch" weave wing man tatic that the Navy used during WW2. The wing man would be about 2,000 feet above and behind the lead aircraft and would be making "S" turns, that way the wing man could see the "6" area quite well. Of course the lead aircraft can't be flying with full throttle, until engaged in combat, because with the wing man during "S" turns, the lead ship would eventually run off and leave the wing man. Below is a link from The U.S. Naval Insitute explaning how the weave was developed.

  Three Navy fighter pilots—Jimmie Thach, Butch O'Hare, and Jimmy Flatley—who developed sweeping changes in aerial combat tactics during World War II. While O'Hare and Flatley were instrumental in making the "weave" a success, Thach was its theoretical innovator, and his use of the tactic in combat at Midway documented its practical application. This portrait of the famous pilot provides a memorable account of how Thach, convinced that his Wildcat was no match for Japan's formidable Zero, found a way to give his squadron a fighting chance. Using matchsticks on his kitchen table, he devised a solution that came to be called the Thach Weave. But as Steve Ewing is quick to point out, this was not Thach's sole contribution to the Navy. Throughout his forty-year career, Thach provided answers to multiple challenges facing the Navy, and his ideas were implemented service wide.

A highly decorated ace, Thach was an early test pilot, a creative task force operations officer in the last year of World War II, and an outstanding carrier commander in the Korean War. During the Cold War, he contributed to advances in antisubmarine warfare. This shows him to be a charismatic leader interested in everyone around him, regardless of rank or status. His dry sense of humor and constant smile attracted people from all walks of life, and he was a popular figure in Hollywood. Thach remains a hero among naval aviators, his most famous combat tactic still used by today's pilots.

[Randy1]

After the holiday, we should be able to put some of this advice to good use.  One of our biggest problems was maintaining proper separation from what I have read in the replies.

I have ran into a couple of 109s one occasion and mustangs on another that had considerable altitude advantage.  They worked well together.  I could avoid one but the other took advantage of my avoiding the first attacker.