Author Topic: Grumman Rules the Sky  (Read 16810 times)

Offline Golfer

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6314
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #195 on: December 16, 2013, 10:04:32 PM »
Nothing's better than a P-51H. Nothing.  Facts be damned.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #196 on: December 16, 2013, 10:09:57 PM »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline J.A.W.

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 636
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #197 on: December 16, 2013, 10:24:25 PM »
P-51H...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfPOVWOIL8M



Much obliged there Ww, most kind indeed..

Dang.. aint she a slick lil' filly though..

Musta been a real buzz to put the spurs ( 2,200hp  @ 3000rpm/90in Hg/ADI) to her..

 Esp when ol'uncle Sam was springing for the tab..

Guessin' you'd kinda like to give her a lick o' the leather when she's all shuckered down & bare-back @ 8,000lbs, huh Ww?


& G, naw, don't think so  -  I still reckon a big ol' Brit Sabre-Fury would stomp on that pretty pony, but good..
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 11:49:28 PM by J.A.W. »
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #198 on: December 16, 2013, 10:27:59 PM »

So will headwind induced 'free' airspeed come into play?


There is actually a way to use the "free" energy from wind, but not in the way you seem to be thinking...

I fly a lot of RC, and sailplanes (thermal and slope) in particular (but also have a lot of warbird and aerobatic biplane experience).

To use the wind as an energy source requires being in flight already (not taking off, so to speak), and while at flying speed passing from a lower-speed wind layer into a higher-speed wind layer (which will give you a "temporarily" higher airspeed; for "free").  If you continue on the same heading / AoA, you'll slow and lose that speed; but if you instead continue to pull up and over the top you can maintain that extra airspeed and begin flying downwind, which will then give you the effect of that higher airspeed added to the downwind speed.  When you then complete your loop , and simultaneously break back through the lower-speed wind layer you'll be back at the "starting point" but will arrive there at a higher airspeed than you began.  You can repeat that looping flight, continuously passing from the lower-speed wind layer into the higher-speed wind layer (and gaining airspeed each time you that), and maintaining that gain in speed by turning downwind and dropping back into the lower-speed layer...  Each time you do that you'll go faster, and faster, and faster, and faster; gaining "free" energy from the wind.

Kind of neat, and lots of fun!  Look into "dynamic soaring"...  For an rc glider that will generally fly at less than 30mph in a level glide, the speed record at this point is in the neighborhood of 450 -500mph.  Not too shabby for "free" energy.

Of course, as the others have mentioned this won't work as an assist for a climb to altitude test; it's not a method to "cheat", but it's fun never-the-less.  Birds of prey have been using this method for millennia; humans are really just getting started with it.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline J.A.W.

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 636
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #199 on: December 16, 2013, 10:36:56 PM »
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline J.A.W.

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 636
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #200 on: December 16, 2013, 10:41:28 PM »
There is actually a way to use the "free" energy from wind, but not in the way you seem to be thinking...

I fly a lot of RC, and sailplanes (thermal and slope) in particular (but also have a lot of warbird and aerobatic biplane experience).

To use the wind as an energy source requires being in flight already (not taking off, so to speak), and while at flying speed passing from a lower-speed wind layer into a higher-speed wind layer (which will give you a "temporarily" higher airspeed; for "free").  If you continue on the same heading / AoA, you'll slow and lose that speed; but if you instead continue to pull up and over the top you can maintain that extra airspeed and begin flying downwind, which will then give you the effect of that higher airspeed added to the downwind speed.  When you then complete your loop , and simultaneously break back through the lower-speed wind layer you'll be back at the "starting point" but will arrive there at a higher airspeed than you began.  You can repeat that looping flight, continuously passing from the lower-speed wind layer into the higher-speed wind layer (and gaining airspeed each time you that), and maintaining that gain in speed by turning downwind and dropping back into the lower-speed layer...  Each time you do that you'll go faster, and faster, and faster, and faster; gaining "free" energy from the wind.

Kind of neat, and lots of fun!  Look into "dynamic soaring"...  For an rc glider that will generally fly at less than 30mph in a level glide, the speed record at this point is in the neighborhood of 450 -500mph.  Not too shabby for "free" energy.

Of course, as the others have mentioned this won't work as an assist for a climb to altitude test; it's not a method to "cheat", but it's fun never-the-less.  Birds of prey have been using this method for millennia; humans are really just getting started with it.
.



Again thanks for the thoughtful & well considered post Mtn-m,

One to add to the 'this what I  - seen - heard - done - know'.. file..
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 10:43:09 PM by J.A.W. »
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline WWhiskey

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3122
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #201 on: December 16, 2013, 11:16:17 PM »
Ok I wasnt gonna sleep anyway so i did it for ya!

Yak-3 full fuel from the tower full throttle to east runway film starts automatically every time so there is no question of error on my part
I did not measure anything as far as roll out to wheels up,, but I have the films and will send them to anyone who wants to see them,, they are AH films

run 1 ;test  0 wind                       time to 10k 3.02 minutes
run 2 ; actual -----   0 wind          time to 10k 3.03 minutes
run 3 ; actual  25mph head wind     time to 10k 3.04 minutes
run 4 ; actual 40mph head wind      time to 10k 3.00 minutes

no real difference in any of the settings from 0 to 45 MPH  If I need to check for a higher speed wind,, just let me know!

I had the Yak already in the hanger so its what i used,, to check the game against reality  Id need the real planes numbers and weight!
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 11:18:24 PM by WWhiskey »
Flying since tour 71.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #202 on: December 16, 2013, 11:21:04 PM »
Did you notice what the air speed was for each climb?
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline J.A.W.

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 636
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #203 on: December 16, 2013, 11:26:55 PM »
Ok I wasnt gonna sleep anyway so i did it for ya!

Yak-3 full fuel from the tower full throttle to east runway film starts automatically every time so there is no question of error on my part
I did not measure anything as far as roll out to wheels up,, but I have the films and will send them to anyone who wants to see them,, they are AH films

run 1 ;test  0 wind                       time to 10k 3.02 minutes
run 2 ; actual -----   0 wind          time to 10k 3.03 minutes
run 3 ; actual  25mph head wind     time to 10k 3.04 minutes
run 4 ; actual 40mph head wind      time to 10k 3.00 minutes

no real difference in any of the settings from 0 to 45 MPH  If I need to check for a higher speed wind,, just let me know!

I had the Yak already in the hanger so its what i used,, to check the game against reality  Id need the real planes numbers and weight!


Many thanks WW, good effort & most appreciated..

Now.. would Brooke care to chime in.. on the p-factor/significance level of your findings?
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline WWhiskey

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3122
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #204 on: December 16, 2013, 11:47:21 PM »
Did you notice what the air speed was for each climb?
no but I went back
40 mph HW was 113/150   first number is what the film viewer said/ second number was indicated in red on the firewall
25 mph HW was 149/175
0 wind was  __  186/190     all at 10k roughly!


 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 11:50:17 PM by WWhiskey »
Flying since tour 71.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #205 on: December 17, 2013, 12:22:10 AM »
Here's a good comparison of the F8F-2 vs the P-51D... Takeoff roll. Both power up at the same time. The F8F sprints away, is airborne in about 300 feet and pulls into a near 45 degree climb. Meanwhile, the Mustang hasn't broken ground yet. It's an entertaining video, but the first 30 seconds shows the difference in acceleration and initial climb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5HfqMtksBI
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline J.A.W.

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 636
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #206 on: December 17, 2013, 12:42:59 AM »
Here's a good comparison of the F8F-2 vs the P-51D... Takeoff roll. Both power up at the same time. The F8F sprints away, is airborne in about 300 feet and pulls into a near 45 degree climb. Meanwhile, the Mustang hasn't broken ground yet. It's an entertaining video, but the first 30 seconds shows the difference in acceleration and initial climb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5HfqMtksBI


Yeah Ww, & pretty sure you done posted that vid already on the 'Best Heavy Fighter' thread..

So, again..

That fat 'n' tame  ol' hack D - well she sure aint no skittish hot pursang  '51H pumpin' WEP @ 8k T.O.W - is she now, boy?

& likely if Capt T.Mantell had saddled up a feisty H 'Stang - 'stead of a lazy ol' D, he'd a whipped that dang UFO too,
skinning it real good - jest like if it'd been a salty ol' blue-belly Bearcat..
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 01:07:18 AM by J.A.W. »
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #207 on: December 17, 2013, 01:49:37 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 10:27:59 AM by Skuzzy »
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline J.A.W.

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 636
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #208 on: December 17, 2013, 02:00:10 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 10:28:08 AM by Skuzzy »
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline J.A.W.

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 636
Re: Grumman Rules the Sky
« Reply #209 on: December 17, 2013, 03:00:48 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 10:28:19 AM by Skuzzy »
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."