Author Topic: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance  (Read 3145 times)

Offline ink

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2013, 04:54:28 PM »
flaps are good for giving that extra bit of climb at the top of a rope also helping getting over the top of that vert climb....or when you are on the verge of a stall in a tight turn fight, they give more stability....otherwise leave them in.

Offline FLOOB

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2013, 05:56:52 PM »
Learn how to make coordinated turns, keep your eye on the ball and don't let the rate of climb indicator drop into the negative when doing flat turns. Besides not having a wingman, that is one of the most common mistakes I see people make in a turn fight. Giving up their alt and widening their turning circle because they're actually in a shallow spiral dive. I guess because they're thinking if they go faster they'll turn tighter.
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Offline Debrody

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2013, 06:23:10 PM »
I know the spits become rather unstable when using flaps at low speeds and tend to go into flat spins. It takes a skilled hand to control a spit with flaps whereas something like a 109 is more difficult to put into an uncontrolled stall.
Bro, where do you live? The spit is super-easy.
The real art is, to look like you were in an uncontrolled stall while fully controlling it and shooting the enemies butt while looking good.
If something, learning this might make me to come back once.
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Offline Latrobe

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2013, 06:51:14 PM »
Bro, where do you live? The spit is super-easy.
The real art is, to look like you were in an uncontrolled stall while fully controlling it and shooting the enemies butt while looking good.
If something, learning this might make me to come back once.

Whenever I used flaps in a spit and start going up hill the plane tends to want to put itself in a flat spin. I had to be very careful when using flaps in a spit because of that...  though I haven't flown a spitfire in years so maybe that's been changed?  :)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2013, 06:55:55 PM »
Learn how to make coordinated turns, keep your eye on the ball and don't let the rate of climb indicator drop into the negative when doing flat turns. Besides not having a wingman, that is one of the most common mistakes I see people make in a turn fight. Giving up their alt and widening their turning circle because they're actually in a shallow spiral dive. I guess because they're thinking if they go faster they'll turn tighter.

Some planes actually do turn better in a nose low turns, P-38 is an example, since basically you're rolling into the turn but run the risk of over speeding and over shooting the bandit if you don't control your speed.

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Offline Debrody

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2013, 08:24:18 PM »
Whenever I used flaps in a spit and start going up hill the plane tends to want to put itself in a flat spin. I had to be very careful when using flaps in a spit because of that...  though I haven't flown a spitfire in years so maybe that's been changed?  :)
Got what you are referring to, felt that a couple times. Maybe its in connection with the CoG. The Spits are still super-easy to fly  ;)
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2013, 11:24:36 PM »
Bro, where do you live? The spit is super-easy.
The real art is, to look like you were in an uncontrolled stall while fully controlling it and shooting the enemies butt while looking good.
If something, learning this might make me to come back once.

That's because flying the 109 it likes the jerkiness and whip stall (if you know what I mean), where as the spit with flaps down in a slow roll will flat spin if you try the same technique. I hear ya on that trobe. The f4u does the same thing if ur not careful but not as easy as the spit.

Edit: quoted wrong passage
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 11:58:27 PM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2013, 02:47:50 AM »
I'm not good at explain things....but a lot of guys are getting the "be lower then your opponent" on the merge confused. Some think it's all about E, but its really more about angles; they will merge too late causing them to be killed very quickly before they reach the top of their merge.

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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2013, 05:45:56 AM »
Learn how to make coordinated turns, keep your eye on the ball and don't let the rate of climb indicator drop into the negative when doing flat turns. Besides not having a wingman, that is one of the most common mistakes I see people make in a turn fight. Giving up their alt and widening their turning circle because they're actually in a shallow spiral dive. I guess because they're thinking if they go faster they'll turn tighter.
It's a little more complicated than that as it's totally dependent on your starting airspeed and Corner velocity.  Corner gives you your best possible turn rate and smallest turn radius so that's what you're aiming for.  If you're significantly above your corner velocity you will improve your turn rate by a nose-high turn (nose above the horizon) to allow you to decelerate to Corner at the same time you're trading your speed for a bit of altitude.  Once you near Corner then overbank slightly to bring your nose down just a bit below the horizon and trade some altitude to sustain your turn rate at Corner plus, since there's a vertical component to your turn, you can reduce your turn radius even more than a flat turn at Corner.  This is known as a "wing over."  If your starting speed is below Corner then make the entire turn slightly nose-low (nose below the horizon) to trade a bit of altitude to sustain what turn rate you have and gain a bit of speed to come closer to Corner.  How much "nose-high" or "nose-low" you go depends on how far away from Corner you are (and it takes a bit of experimentation and practice in your chosen ride.)  If your Corner is 225mph and you're going 400 then bring your nose well above the horizon, even to the point of doing an oblique pitchback.  If your starting speed is 200 then use only a slightly nose-low turn (5 to 10 degrees).  The slower you are the more nose-low you need to turn (a slice).  If your speed is significantly below Corner, say you're climbing out at 150 when you get attacked, your best option is probably closer to a split S.  As in the nose high turns, you have a vertical component to nose-low turns but it works against you.  A nose-low turn at corner will still give you your best turn rate but your radius will begin to increase as you're working against G so, generally speaking, you need to be judicious in nose-low turns to prevent your radius from getting out of hand.  You can control for this just like the nose-high turns by starting very nose-low and then rolling to bring your nose up a bit once you reach corner changing your turn into more of a low yo-yo.

In summary, use nose-high and nose-low turns (and combinations of them) to maintain your speed as close to corner as you can be.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 06:11:04 AM by Mace2004 »
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Offline waystin2

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2013, 10:45:35 AM »
flaps are good for giving that extra bit of climb at the top of a rope also helping getting over the top of that vert climb....or when you are on the verge of a stall in a tight turn fight, they give more stability....otherwise leave them in.
  Yep. :aok  Also kick them when I think it will give me that last inch of lead needed to take a shot, but only for very short periods of time.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2013, 10:57:21 AM »
It's a little more complicated than that as it's totally dependent on your starting airspeed and Corner velocity.  Corner gives you your best possible turn rate and smallest turn radius so that's what you're aiming for.  If you're significantly above your corner velocity you will improve your turn rate by a nose-high turn (nose above the horizon) to allow you to decelerate to Corner at the same time you're trading your speed for a bit of altitude.  Once you near Corner then overbank slightly to bring your nose down just a bit below the horizon and trade some altitude to sustain your turn rate at Corner plus, since there's a vertical component to your turn, you can reduce your turn radius even more than a flat turn at Corner.  This is known as a "wing over."  If your starting speed is below Corner then make the entire turn slightly nose-low (nose below the horizon) to trade a bit of altitude to sustain what turn rate you have and gain a bit of speed to come closer to Corner.  How much "nose-high" or "nose-low" you go depends on how far away from Corner you are (and it takes a bit of experimentation and practice in your chosen ride.)  If your Corner is 225mph and you're going 400 then bring your nose well above the horizon, even to the point of doing an oblique pitchback.  If your starting speed is 200 then use only a slightly nose-low turn (5 to 10 degrees).  The slower you are the more nose-low you need to turn (a slice).  If your speed is significantly below Corner, say you're climbing out at 150 when you get attacked, your best option is probably closer to a split S.  As in the nose high turns, you have a vertical component to nose-low turns but it works against you.  A nose-low turn at corner will still give you your best turn rate but your radius will begin to increase as you're working against G so, generally speaking, you need to be judicious in nose-low turns to prevent your radius from getting out of hand.  You can control for this just like the nose-high turns by starting very nose-low and then rolling to bring your nose up a bit once you reach corner changing your turn into more of a low yo-yo.

In summary, use nose-high and nose-low turns (and combinations of them) to maintain your speed as close to corner as you can be.


   Thank you Mace,I've been trying to teach this for quite awhile now!  I find most new players tend to turn nose down to maintain speed and then wonder why they get beat.

 


   :salute

Offline FLOOB

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2013, 11:03:33 AM »
Don't worry about corner velocity kids, just try not to get lower than the guy trying to out flat turn you. At that point in the fight you're both going to be going well below corner velocity.
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Offline FLOOB

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2013, 11:08:10 AM »

   Thank you Mace,I've been trying to teach this for quite awhile now!  I find most new players tend to turn nose down to maintain speed and then wonder why they get beat.

 


   :salute
That's pretty much what I said in my post.
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2013, 11:10:39 AM »
Don't worry about corner velocity kids, just try not to get lower than the guy trying to out flat turn you. At that point in the fight you're both going to be going well below corner velocity.


sometimes though if I feel like I have just a tad more E than them, I will go nose down a bit in a angle turn and try to do a immelmann loop to get an angle. This can end in a catastrophic flat spin death or a nice angle shot. Sometimes you gotta do it more than once.

Sometimes planes that you know are better in the flat turn, will have a hard time dealing with a plane that uses the vert technique. Such as a ki84 vs a brewster. Or a 109 vs a spit
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 11:14:22 AM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline Fulcrum

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Re: Tips and tricks for better fighting performance
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2013, 01:47:02 PM »

When I first saw this thread I thought it was titled "Tips and tricks for better performance." 


I've since gotten over the crushing disappointment....
Going by "Hoplite" now. :)