FW-190 A5 Speed@sea level.

[J.A.W.]

AFAIR, 190s on JABO duties were authorised to use higher boost levels first, on cross channel strikes,
& they could out-run Spitfires on the deck, but 'came a cropper' when Typhoons turned up..

[Karnak]

AFAIR, 190s on JABO duties were authorised to use higher boost levels first, on cross channel strikes,
& they could out-run Spitfires on the deck, but 'came a cropper' when Typhoons turned up..

And later Spit XIIs.

[J.A.W.]

Yeah Spit 12s, a day late & a $ short,
- they were R-R & Supermarine's bid to get the Sabre/Typhoon cancelled, but thankfully, that attempt failed..

[Karnak]

Yeah Spit 12s, a day late & a $ short,
- they were R-R & Supermarine's bid to get the Sabre/Typhoon cancelled, but thankfully, that attempt failed..

Not exactly.  Talk to Dan/Guppy.

They were better at Fw190 raider killing that Tiffies were.

[J.A.W.]

Incorrect on every level there Knak..

1, Performance-wise, Typhoon beats Spit 12 for speed.. ..based on both published sources & pilots views..

2, Guns, 4 cannon beats 2 cannon +4 .303s..

3, Victory credits, Typhoons shot down many more JABOs than Spit 12s did..

[Karnak]

Incorrect on every level there Knak..

1, Performance-wise, Typhoon beats Spit 12 for speed.. ..based on both published sources & pilots views..

2, Guns, 4 cannon beats 2 cannon +4 .303s..

3, Victory credits, Typhoons shot down many more JABOs than Spit 12s did..

1) Yes, Tiffie is faster than Spit XII, but both are faster than Fw190A.  Spit XII is a much better fighter and much more suited to actually fighting the Fw190s.

2) Moot point. Two 20mm cannons are more than adequate to destroy a single engined fighter.

3) As a whole yes, but accounting for squadrons using them, no.  91 Squadron with Spit XIIs was the most successful RAF squadron during the time that 91 had Spitfire XIIs.  Only 100 XIIs were built so using a nonsense, simplistic "Tiffies shot down more than Mk XIIs" is misleading as a comparison data point.

[J.A.W.]

Knak,  - you wrote.. that Spit 12s "were better at FW 190 raider killing than Tiffies"

Well, they weren't, so you were wrong.. nothing misleading there at all, just the facts..

4 cannon can do twice as much damage as 2, or the same damage in 1/2 the time..
& Typhoons carried more ammo..

Typhoons essentially made the German JABO attacks on Britain unprofitable, & they ceased..

Something Spits could not & did not achieve..

JABO pilots generally tried to avoid A2A, but they could not out-run Typhoons on the deck..

[Karnak]

Knak,  - you wrote.. that Spit 12s "were better at FW 190 raider killing than Tiffies"

Well, they weren't, so you were wrong.. nothing misleading there at all, just the facts..

4 cannon can do twice as much damage as 2, or the same damage in 1/2 the time..
& Typhoons carried more ammo..

Typhoons essentially made the German JABO attacks on Britain unprofitable, & they ceased..

Something Spits could not & did not achieve..

JABO pilots generally tried to avoid A2A, but they could not out-run Typhoons on the deck..

Your reasoning/thinking is extremely simplistic and you ignore any inconvenient facts that call into question your desired conclusions.  You seem to create narratives in your head and then lock onto them as absolutely true.  If this requires you to make things up, such as headwinds increasing climb rates or four 20mm cannons being significantly better for fighter killing than two 20mm cannons then you will do so, damn any data that says otherwise.

You are aware, I trust, that the Typhoon was intended to replace the Spitfire as the RAF's frontline fighter, yes?  It never did so for a number of reasons and was almost canceled due to persistent teething problems and general failure to perform as expected.  The fact that it was found to be able to run down the Fw190 raiders was all that saved it and it later proved to be a good attack aircraft.  The Spitfire Mk XII was never intended to get the Typhoon canceled, it was simply the first production Griffon engined Spitfire, something that Rolls-Royce and Supermarine had been working on for years.  The fact that it also could run down Fw190 raiders, and was a superior fighter to the Typhoon, enabled it to thrive in that roll despite the limited production.  The fact is that the Typhoon, nor Tempest, ever managed to supplant the Spitfire.  The Spitfire fell to the Meteor and Vampire.

[BaldEagl]

I think Spit XII's carried the 2x20mm, 2x.50cal gun package, not the 4x.303's.

Spitfires served in many nations into the '50's.  Where were the Typhoons then?

[Karnak]

I think Spit XII's carried the 2x20mm, 2x.50cal gun package, not the 4x.303's.

Spitfires served in many nations into the '50's.  Where were the Typhoons then?

No, he is quite correct about the two 20mm and four .303s for the XII.  Even the first Mk XIVs were thus armed.

[J.A.W.]

Knak, ironyman, irony..

That 1st sentence - in your 2nd last post here - so applies to you..

How can you straight-faced deny that 4 cannon are better than 2? Incredible!

& more homework needed there too, Knak..

Here is what really went down..

The unexpectedly good development potential of the Merlin Spitfire combination was serendipitous.

The unexpectedly poor performance of the thick-winged Typhoon at higher altitude, & production related
difficulties with its Sabre mill were as (unpleasantly) unexpected..

R-R had to cancel their failed Sabre rival (the Vulture) & wanted the Griffon to replace both..

The Spit 12 was supposed to show that the Typhoon was unnecessary, but it was no substitute, in reality..

[J.A.W.]

& Baldy, Tempests replaced Typhoons, & were still flying in the RAF through to the mid `50s..

[Karnak]

Four cannon do not significantly enhance the ability to destroy small, single seat aircraft as compared to two cannons.  They do, however, weigh twice as much and thus impose an unnecessary performance penalty for a marginally useful increase in firepower. For fighter vs fighter combat the increase in firepower is simply not worth the loss of performance.

For shooting down two and four engined bombers four 20mm cannons are, without doubt, superior to two 20mm cannons.  

& Baldy, Tempests replaced Typhoons, & were still flying in the RAF through to the mid `50s..

Tempest is not a Typhoon.

[morfiend]

 JAW,

  While I'll grant you that the tiffy was a great plane you neglect to mention any of the many problems it had in developement while focussing in on any failures or problems the compatition had.

  My father taught me not to argue with people like you for 2 very good reasons!



    

[J.A.W.]

No denial of problems in Sabre/Typhoon development, it was rushed & somewhat 1/2 arsed too..

But it did finally prove its worth..