Author Topic: Allied Bombing campaign  (Read 4034 times)

Offline GScholz

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2014, 11:47:41 AM »
It doesn't matter if you authored the article or not when you quote it as if it is authoritative. If you aren't presuming it is accurate then disclaim that it represents an inflated amount of several magnitudes above official estimates. It may be wise to go so far as to recognize that there are groups and individuals that are apologists of the Jewish Holocaust (more than Jews involved, actually) that have inflated the casualty count of the Dresden raids in order to use such as a comparative example.

I do not know whether the claims are inflated or not. Like I said, I don't presume to know the actual number of victims or whose estimates are the most correct. If you do, then that's your case to prove, not mine.
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Offline zack1234

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2014, 11:55:45 AM »
Grand slam bombs would have save lives :old:
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2014, 11:58:31 AM »
I do not know whether the claims are inflated or not. Like I said, I don't presume to know the actual number of victims or whose estimates are the most correct. If you do, then that's your case to prove, not mine.

You're the one that posted an article claiming half a million dead as if it's authoritative. I've found reference to that claim being inflated with official estimates making it 25,000. When challenged, you responded as if the count didn't matter. My source also mentioned the groups responsible for inflating the numbers and why.

I have no personal beef with you. As a matter of fact, it's my concern for you possibly getting sucked into deceitful political ideology that drives me to suggest you check your sources more carefully.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2014, 11:59:33 AM »
The point I'm trying to make is that the actual number is irrelevant; at some point an atrocity becomes so large, of such a magnitude of cruelty, that the numbers of dead just becomes statistics. That's what you're arguing: Statistics. Not the fact that those statistics represent the deliberate burning alive of men, women and children, machine-gunning civilians en masse, and destroying an entire city of little or no military value.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 12:01:43 PM by GScholz »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2014, 12:04:40 PM »
In Churchill's defense I can say that I've read that he regretted the destruction of Dresden. Harris otoh did not.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Arlo

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2014, 12:09:33 PM »
The point I'm trying to make is that the actual number is irrelevant; at some point an atrocity becomes so large, of such a magnitude of cruelty, that the numbers of dead just becomes statistics. That's what you're arguing: Statistics. Not the fact that those statistics represent the deliberate burning of men, women and children, machine-gunning civilians en masse, and destroying an entire city of little or no military value.

I conceded that it was a tragedy right off the bat. What you seem unwilling to concede is that your source apparently saw a need to inflate numbers or even invent 'facts' (or repeat invented claims). For instance, the strafing incident:

"Strafing of civilians has become a traditional part of the oral history of the raids since a March 1945 article in the Nazi-run weekly newspaper Das Reich claimed that this had occurred.[63] For example, British historian Alexander McKee in Dresden 1945 (1982) quotes eyewitnesses who state that strafing did occur.[64] According to an RAF webpage on the history of RAF Bomber Command, "[p]art of the American Mustang-fighter escort was ordered to strafe traffic on the roads around Dresden to increase the chaos and disruption to the important transportation network in the region."[65] (see also Yeager's description of similar Second World War missions)

Historian Götz Bergander, who was himself an eyewitness of the raids, found no reports on strafing for 13–15 February, neither by any of the pilots nor by the German military and police. He asserted in Dresden im Luftkrieg (1977) that only a few tales of civilians being strafed were reliable in details, and all were related to the daylight attack on 14 February. He concluded that some memory of eyewitnesses was real, but that it had misinterpreted the firing in an airfight as being deliberately aimed at people on the ground.[66] Historian Helmut Schnatz found, in 2000, that there was an explicit order to RAF pilots not to strafe civilians on the way back home from Dresden. He also reconstructed timelines with the result that strafing would have been almost impossible due to lack of time and fuel.[67] Frederick Taylor in Dresden (2004), basing most of his analysis on the work of Bergander and Schnatz, concludes that no strafing took place, although some stray bullets from an aerial dog fight may have hit the ground and been mistaken for strafing by those in the vicinity.[68] The official historical commission collected 103 detailed eyewitness accounts and let the local bomb disposal services search according to their assertions: They did not find any bullets or fragments thereof which would have been used by planes of the Dresden raids.[69]"

^ Götz Bergander: Dresden im Luftkrieg, 1998, p. 204-209
^ Helmut Schnatz, Tiefflieger über Dresden? Legenden und Wirklichkeit (Böhlau, 2000, ISBN 3-412-13699-9), pp. 96 and 99
^ Taylor 2005, Appendix A. "The Massacre at Elbe Meadows".
^ Neutzner 2010, pp. 71-80.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

You say that it's up to me to prove your un-sourced article wrong. Why isn't it up to you to back your article and prove it right .... without the 'well, the details don't really matter' bit?

Having said that, if the details don't matter then why does the article go to great ends to manipulate them?

Where is this article from? Who wrote it?

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2014, 12:14:09 PM »
The point I'm trying to make is that the actual number is irrelevant; at some point an atrocity becomes so large, of such a magnitude of cruelty, that the numbers of dead just becomes statistics. That's what you're arguing: Statistics. Not the fact that those statistics represent the deliberate burning alive of men, women and children, machine-gunning civilians en masse, and destroying an entire city of little or no military value.
you underestimate the power of "kill thousands, terrify millions". that military philosophy has worked since the time of the mongols...unfortunately for nazi germany and imperial japan, such decisions were necessary.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
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Offline NatCigg

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2014, 12:14:58 PM »
in hindsight, all the efforts led to this....



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« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 12:16:33 PM by NatCigg »

Offline BreakingBad

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2014, 12:20:06 PM »
Possible reference:

"Censorship controversy

Slaughterhouse-Five has been the subject of many attempts at censorship, due to its irreverent tone and purportedly obscene content. In 1972, a circuit judge banned it on the grounds that it is “depraved, immoral, psychotic, vulgar, and anti-Christian.” In the novel, American soldiers use profanity; his language is irreverent; and the book depicts sex. It was one of the first literary acknowledgments that homosexual men, referred to in the novel as "fairies," were among the victims of the Nazi Holocaust.[11]

In the USA it has at times been banned from literature classes, removed from school libraries, and struck from literary curricula;[12] however, it is still taught in some schools. The U.S. Supreme Court considered the First Amendment implications of the removal of the book, among others, from public school libraries in the case of Island Trees School District v. Pico, [457 U.S. 853 (1982)], and concluded that "local school boards may not remove books from school library shelves simply because they dislike the ideas contained in those books and seek by their removal to 'prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion.'" Slaughterhouse-Five is the sixty-seventh entry to the American Library Association's list of the 100 Most Frequently Challenged Books of 1990–1999. Slaughterhouse-Five continues to be controversial. In August 2011, the novel was banned at the Republic High School in Missouri. The Kurt Vonnegut Memorial Library countered by offering 150 free copies of the novel to Republic High School students on a first come, first served basis.[13]"

^ http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/08/the-neverending-campaign-to-ban-slaughterhouse-five/243525/#
^ 100 Most Frequently Challenged Books of 1990–1999

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse-Five

Yes I read those too.  A few school districts banned the book and some literature classes don't have it on the curriculum. 

It is a bit of an exaggeration to claim the book was 'banned in a number of states' because of couple of obscure school districts removed it from the local high school library. 


Offline gyrene81

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2014, 12:21:35 PM »
 :rofl  NatCigg, stop man, i don't have a denny's anywhere near me.  :cry  posting that is just mean...
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline Arlo

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2014, 12:26:05 PM »
Yes I read those too.  A few school districts banned the book and some literature classes don't have it on the curriculum. 

It is a bit of an exaggeration to claim the book was 'banned in a number of states' because of couple of obscure school districts removed it from the local high school library. 

Exaggeration appears to be a theme in this thread.  :noid

Offline BreakingBad

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2014, 12:26:52 PM »
you underestimate the power of "kill thousands, terrify millions". that military philosophy has worked since the time of the mongols...unfortunately for nazi germany and imperial japan, such decisions were necessary.

I think the debate here is whether or not it was necessary.  It's easy to second guess decisions with the benefit of hindsight, in my opinion it was not.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2014, 12:27:41 PM »
Edit: What I was responding to was edited out.  :D
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 12:30:47 PM by Arlo »

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2014, 12:37:12 PM »
I think the debate here is whether or not it was necessary.  It's easy to second guess decisions with the benefit of hindsight, in my opinion it was not.
i tend to place less value on human compassion...it was necessary at the time. i can think of a few other locales that could use similar treatment right now.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline GScholz

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Re: Allied Bombing campaign
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2014, 12:46:23 PM »
Arlo, I named that author several posts ago: Rense. I'm not "unwilling to concede" anything, because I haven't made any claims to concede. I recognize the fact that the number of dead is controversial and in question, but I also state, repeatedly, that it is irrelevant for the purpose of my posting the article. As for the strafing; German civilians were strafed by allied fighters all over Germany, not only in Dresden. This BBS even has a member who's grandmother (or gandmother-in-law, I can't remember exactly) was strafed in Germany as a little girl, but I have forgotten his nick. In Chuck Yeager's autobiography he describes how he felt bad about being ordered to strafe civilians in late 1944 during a "maximum effort"; they were assigned what would today be called a "kill box" where they would attack anything that moved to demoralize the German population. They were also ordered to strafe farms and other civilian buildings in the German countryside. I'm not sure I could have done that. During the briefing Yeager said to a fellow pilot (I paraphrase): "If we do this we'd better win the war". Yeager was a ruthless warrior who strafed helpless civilians, but at least he has enough of a conscience to feel bad about it. I find it very hard to believe that allied aircraft did not strafe civilians at Dresden.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."