comparing

[ink]

 

oh crap Kappa.....

[Changeup]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yADrtfAmLTo

OMG! BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GScholz]

The AH P-51D is a supremely maneuverable, fast and powerful fighter at the speeds and altitudes it actually fought in WWII. Above ~300 mph it out accelerates, out climbs and out turns just about every other prop fighter in the game. It also bleeds far less E in high-speed turns and climbs due to the laminar flow wing design. The people who think the way we fight in this game with our low and slow flap and gear dropping antics and daredevil post stall maneuvering, is an accurate representation of how the real warriors fought back in WWII, and make comparisons and assumptions on plane performance based on that, are complete and utter morons... In my opinion.

[Arbiter]

The AH P-51D is a supremely maneuverable, fast and powerful fighter at the speeds and altitudes it actually fought in WWII. Above ~300 mph it out accelerates, out climbs and out turns just about every other prop fighter in the game. It also bleeds far less E in high-speed turns and climbs due to the laminar flow wing design. The people who think the way we fight in this game with our low and slow flap and gear dropping antics and daredevil post stall maneuvering, is an accurate representation of how the real warriors fought back in WWII, and make comparisons and assumptions on plane performance based on that, are complete and utter morons... In my opinion.

True, but remember there are those in game who don't care for the low and slow, flap and gear dropping antics. 

FYI - These are usually the same people who complain about being picked by someone using a 51 in a manner consistent with it's design parameters. 

[Changeup]

The AH P-51D is a supremely maneuverable, fast and powerful fighter at the speeds and altitudes it actually fought in WWII. Above ~300 mph it out accelerates, out climbs and out turns just about every other prop fighter in the game. It also bleeds far less E in high-speed turns and climbs due to the laminar flow wing design. The people who think the way we fight in this game with our low and slow flap and gear dropping antics and daredevil post stall maneuvering, is an accurate representation of how the real warriors fought back in WWII, and make comparisons and assumptions on plane performance based on that, are complete and utter morons... In my opinion.

Being able to perform the maneuversow and slow and preferring to try to fly that way are two very different things.  In point of fact, no one that I've talked to that are actually rated to fly the 51D (Cavanaugh Flight museum pilots) has said those birds can actually do those things low and slow.  Specifically, the 51, F6F, the 4-HOG and the 109E.  Those are the planes that are at the museum and airborne regularly.

Secondly, I haven't read one person that claims they think they were flown that way.  Some have used HOW they're flown in-game as a base of establishing their possibly being overmodeled.

[colmbo]

Reference the 51 and how it was flown in combat, take a peek at these encounter reports.  Scroll down to "Flap use"…some interesting reports there.  One I remember said he was flaps out, 130IAS, on the deck turning with a 109.  From reading these reports it looks like guys did what they had to do to get a shot. 

I'm not saying that what we see in game is realistic.

[LCADolby]

I wonder what fluid dynamics HTC goes through when determining Flight models from the 3D models.

[BnZs]

The AH P-51D is a supremely maneuverable, fast and powerful fighter at the speeds and altitudes it actually fought in WWII. Above ~300 mph it out accelerates, out climbs and out turns just about every other prop fighter in the game. It also bleeds far less E in high-speed turns and climbs due to the laminar flow wing design. The people who think the way we fight in this game with our low and slow flap and gear dropping antics and daredevil post stall maneuvering, is an accurate representation of how the real warriors fought back in WWII, and make comparisons and assumptions on plane performance based on that, are complete and utter morons... In my opinion.

There are several problems with this. The first is making the mistake, yet again, of saying that one plane can "out-turn" each other when both are well above corner velocity and G-limited anyway. This is simply not true, turn rate and radius are defined by airspeed and G load. If two airplanes are going at the same high speed with heavy G load and "riding the tunnel" in AHII, then neither has the advantages. In real life, the pilot who could stand to pull more Gs would gain the advantage, assuming he didn't break his airplane doing so.

The idea that the P-51 bleeds less E in turns, whether in game or in real life, is also extremely problematic. E bleeds in turns because of induced drag. Induced drag is a functional of AoA. A heavy wing-loaded plane like the P-51 must pull a higher AoA to generate the same G as a lighter-loaded plane in a turn, so, all other factors being equal, the heavy loaded plane bleeds more E in maneuvers.

As for the rest, a variety of tactics were used in real life. AHII mains are a low-altitude environment, so planes that worked well in that environment tend to work well in AHII. Aggressive pilots could and did end up fighting extremely slow in real life. But plenty of people in the AHII mains also adhere to the idea "speed is life" and use hit and run/or wingman tactics, and that generally pays of in terms of k/d ratio.

[GScholz]

There are several problems with this. The first is making the mistake, yet again, of saying that one plane can "out-turn" each other when both are well above corner velocity and G-limited anyway. This is simply not true, turn rate and radius are defined by airspeed and G load. If two airplanes are going at the same high speed with heavy G load and "riding the tunnel" in AHII, then neither has the advantages. In real life, the pilot who could stand to pull more Gs would gain the advantage, assuming he didn't break his airplane doing so.

The idea that the P-51 bleeds less E in turns, whether in game or in real life, is also extremely problematic. E bleeds in turns because of induced drag. Induced drag is a functional of AoA. A heavy wing-loaded plane like the P-51 must pull a higher AoA to generate the same G as a lighter-loaded plane in a turn, so, all other factors being equal, the heavy loaded plane bleeds more E in maneuvers.

As for the rest, a variety of tactics were used in real life. AHII mains are a low-altitude environment, so planes that worked well in that environment tend to work well in AHII. Aggressive pilots could and did end up fighting extremely slow in real life. But plenty of people in the AHII mains also adhere to the idea "speed is life" and use hit and run/or wingman tactics, and that generally pays of in terms of k/d ratio.

No it doesn't have to pull higher AoA. One of the benefits of a laminar flow wing is that it generates more lift at lower AoA than more conventional WWII profiles. However once it gets into high AoA needed for tight turns at low speed the laminar flow wing generated less lift and more drag than a more conventional wing. When the P-51 is in it "drag bucket" zone the reduction of drag is significant.




Secondly, you assume all other aircraft are able to actually pull 6+ G at high speed. A 109 pilot would have to work very hard to pull that much at 350+ mph due to the heavy controls at high speed. Thirdly you erroneously state that the P-51 is a high wing loading aircraft. It has a wing loading of 39 lb/sq.ft; slightly better than a 109G-6 at 40 lb/sq.ft. By comparison a Spitfire L.F Mk IXe has a wing loading of 31 lb/sq.ft. and the Fw 190D has 49 lb/sq.ft.

The heavy controls of the 109 at high speed combined with the DB 605 under performing at typical interception altitudes against the USAAF allows the P-51 to easily out perform the 109 in all aspects of flight in typical WWII engagements. Also, in 1944 there was a marked difference in pilot quality between the allies and the Germans; Most of the Jagdwaffe pilots were greenhorns with only a few hours of training in an aircraft that we all know is demanding to master. I'll take a P-51D up against a 109G "two weeker" rookie in AH and I'll win every single time.

However low and slow the 109G easily outperforms the P-51 in all aspects of flight except top speed, and in the hands of pilot of equal skill it will dominate a P-51D. As fighter pilots say: Speed is life, so the P-51 can disengage and run, but it will have to do so before the fight slows down too much, or risk being out accelerated at low speed by the 109 and caught by its guns.

Take it from two men who flies both the P-51D and the 109G: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94

And again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b69pO7538sE

 
Mark Hanna (who sadly is no longer with us) flew Spits and 109s and P-51s through his life: "The '109 will definitely out-maneuver a P-51 in this type of flight, the roll rate and slow speed characteristics being much better. The Spitfire on the other hand is more of a problem for the '109 and I feel it is a superior close in fighter. Having said that the aircraft are sufficiently closely matched that pilot abilty would probably be the deciding factor."

[BnZs]

No it doesn't have to pull higher AoA. One of the benefits of a laminar flow wing is that it generates more lift at lower AoA than more conventional WWII profiles. However once it gets into high AoA needed for tight turns at low speed the laminar flow wing generated less lift and more drag than a more conventional wing. When the P-51 is in it "drag bucket" zone the reduction of drag is significant.

(Image removed from quote.)

The kind of AoA you're talking about in the laminar drag bucket is useful for gentle turns while cruising around. Not for combat. Any P-51 trying to win a dogfight by using a turn gentle enough to stay inside that bucket is simply going to have the opponent cut inside his circle. But this is a minor point, as the airfoil on the P-51 isn't actually horrible at high AoA either.

Secondly, you assume all other aircraft are able to actually pull 6+ G at high speed. A 109 pilot would have to work very hard to pull that much at 350+ mph due to the heavy controls at high speed.

Granted, in AHII our "pilot" can stand 6Gs and can pull 50 pounds on the controls. This combo leads to control heavyness in the 109 not being much of a factor in our combat, especially at higher altitudes where it is difficult to get up to 350+IAS in the first place. In point of fact, I have spoken about this before. In the series Il2, for instance, they have chosen to model the elevator deflection possible with the 109 at high IAS much more conservatively.

Thirdly you erroneously state that the P-51 is a high wing loading aircraft. It has a wing loading of 39 lb/sq.ft; slightly better than a 109G-6 at 40 lb/sq.ft. By comparison a Spitfire L.F Mk IXe has a wing loading of 31 lb/sq.ft. and the Fw 190D has 49 lb/sq.ft.

Getting down to brass tacks, that number reflects a 109G6 completely full of internal fuel, which is fair if we assume it just entered a dogfight after punching off the external tank. If we assume a P-51B in an equivalent condition (aft tank burned off first enroute, as they did, full wing tanks), it also has a wing loading of around 40. Both aircraft are fairly heavily loaded compared to a lot of other WWII aircraft. However, this is a technicality.


 Far be it from me to argue against the idea that the P-51 is better match for the 109 than game would lead us to expect, the whole point I've been talking about in this thread is that in AHII the P-51 cannot turn quite as well as an airplane with even heavier wingloading, higher stall speed, which was generally regarded by pilots who flew both as not as good a turner, i.e the P-47.

The heavy controls of the 109 at high speed combined with the DB 605 under performing at typical interception altitudes against the USAAF allows the P-51 to easily out perform the 109 in all aspects of flight in typical WWII engagements. Also, in 1944 there was a marked difference in pilot quality between the allies and the Germans; Most of the Jagdwaffe pilots were greenhorns with only a few hours of training in an aircraft that we all know is demanding to master. I'll take a P-51D up against a 109G "two weeker" rookie in AH and I'll win every single time.

However low and slow the 109G easily outperforms the P-51 in all aspects of flight except top speed, and in the hands of pilot of equal skill it will dominate a P-51D. As fighter pilots say: Speed is life, so the P-51 can disengage and run, but it will have to do so before the fight slows down too much, or risk being out accelerated at low speed by the 109 and caught by its guns.

Take it from two men who flies both the P-51D and the 109G: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94

 
Mark Hanna (who sadly is no longer with us) flew Spits and 109s and P-51s through his life: "The '109 will definitely out-maneuver a P-51 in this type of flight, the roll rate and slow speed characteristics being much better. The Spitfire on the other hand is more of a problem for the '109 and I feel it is a superior close in fighter. Having said that the aircraft are sufficiently closely matched that pilot abilty would probably be the deciding factor."

WWII combat accounts would lead one to believe that in dogfights between 109s and 51s, even low and slow ones, pilot ability was still the deciding factor.

[GScholz]

Between a 109G and a P-51D pilot ability is the deciding factor only if the difference of skill is great, as it usually was in 1944. However, when a 109 "experten" encountered the P-51 it was a much more even fight at altitude, and a very one sided fight at low altitude to the 109's advantage. The highest scoring P-51 killer was Major Wilhelm Steinmann. While flying for JG4 in 1944 he shot down 10 P-51s in his 109. He got two more Mustangs while flying the 262 in 1945. He also shot down 7 P-47s, two Spitfires, a P-38, a P-40 and a Typhoon in his 109. The rest of his 44 total victories were bombers. Experienced German pilots trimmed their 109s nose high, requiring constant forward pressure on the stick just to stay in level flight, but allowing for pulling more Gs at high speed. In AH one must also trim manually to get the most out of a 109.

The German pilots who test flew captured P-51s gave generally favorable reviews of the aircraft's performance, but often criticized the heavy workload in operating it: "During the war I had the oppertunity to fly captured P-47's and P-51's. I didn't like the Thunderbolt. It was too big. The cockpit was immense and unfamiliar. After so may hours in the snug confines of the 109, everything felt out of reach and too far away from the pilot. Although the P-51 was a fine airplane to fly, because of its reactions and capabilities, it too was disconcerting. With all those levers, controls and switches in the cockpit. I'm surprised your pilots could find the time to fight. We had nothing like this in the 109. Everything was simple and very close to the pilot. You fitted into the cockpit like a hand in a glove. Our instrumentation was complete, but simple: throttle, mixture control and prop pitch. How your pilots were able to work on all their gadgets and still function amazes me." - Walter Wolfrum. Bf 109 ace with 137 confirmed air kills.

During his combat career on the Russian front, Erich Hartmann met US planes over Romania, shooting down seven P-51s during these engagements and it is thought that US ace Ralph K. Hoffer (16.5
victories) was one of Hartmann's victims. US fighter pilot Lawrence Thompson fought a German ace over Romania in early 1945. He claims it was Erich Hartmann, but there is some controversy over this claim. Consensus seems to be that it was another Experten and the story is obviously exaggerated in parts. It's a good read nonetheless...

".... this was my first major dogfight I had in the war, in January 1945. I was flying a P-51D and we were supposed to meet with bombers over Romania. Well, the bombers never showed up! And we kept circling and wasting our fuel. When we were low on fuel the squadron leader orders us back to base, with the top group at 24,000 feet and the four bait Mustangs ordered to 15,000 feet. Now you might not really think about it, but the difference in altitude, 9,000 feet, is almost two miles, and assuming that the top flight could dive and rescue the 'bait' airplanes, it might take a full sixty seconds or more for the top group to come to the rescue. A heck of alot can happen in sixty seconds. Earlier, I requested to fly in the bait section believing that I'd have a better chance to get some scores (at that time I had no victories either) and this was my seventh mission. I have to say now that I grew up in Kansas City, Kansas, and my older brother flew a Jenny biplane in the late 1930s, so I learned the basics of flying even before joining the Army.

So we're all heading back to Italy when, all of a sudden, a dozen or so Me109's bounce us. From one moment it's a clear blue sky, next moment there are dozens' of tracers passing my cockpit. I'm hit several times and I roll over to the right, and below me is an P-51, heading for the deck, with an Me109 chasing him. I begin to chase the Me109. All this time I believe there was another Me109 chasing me! It was a racetrack, all four of us were racing for the finish line! Eventually I caught up with the first Me109 and I fired a long burst at about 1,000 yards, to no effect. Then I waited until about 600 yards, I fired two very long bursts, probably five seconds each (P-51 has ammo for about 18 seconds of continuous bursts for four machine guns, the remaining two machine guns will shoot for about 24 seconds). I noticed that part of his engine cowling flew off and he immediately broke off his attack on the lead P-51. I check my rear view mirrors and there's nothing behind me now; somehow, I have managed to lose the Me109 following me, probably because the diving speed of the P-51 is sixty mph faster than the Me109. So I pull up on the yoke and level out; suddenly a Me109 loomes about as large as a barn door right in front of me! And he fires his guns at me, and he rolls to the right, in a Lufberry circle. I peel off, following this Me109. I can see silver P-51s and black nosed camouflaged painted Me109s everywhere I look, there's Me109 or P-51 everywhere! At this time I cannot get on the transmitter and talk, everyone else in the squadron is yelling and talking, and there's nothing but yelling, screaming, and incoherent interference as everyone presses their mike buttons at the same time. I can smell something in the cockpit. Hydraulic fluid! I knew I got hit earlier.

.... I'm still following this Me109. I just got my first confirmed kill of my tour, and now I'm really hot. I believe that I am the hottest pilot in the USAAF! And now I'm thinking to myself: am I going to shoot this Me109 down too?! He rolls and we turn, and turn; somehow, I cannot catch up with him in the Lufberry circle, we just keep circling. About the third 360 degree turn he and I must have spotted two Mustangs flying below us, about 2,000 feet below, and he dives for the two P-51s.

Now I'm about 150 yards from him, and I get my gunsight on his tail, but I cannot shoot, because if I shoot wide, or my bullets pass through him, I might shoot down one or both P-51s, so I get a front seat, watching, fearful that this guy will shoot down a P-51 we're approaching at about 390 mph. There's so much interference on the R/T I cannot warn the two Mustangs, I fire one very long burst of about seven or eight seconds purposely wide, so it misses the Mustangs, and the Me109 pilot can see the tracers. None of the Mustang pilots see the tracers either! I was half hoping expecting that they'd see my tracers and turn out of the way of the diving Me109. But no such luck. I quit firing. The Me109 still dives, and as he approaches the two P-51s he holds his fire, and as the gap closes, two hundred yards, one hundred yards, fifty yards the Hun does not fire a shot. No tracers, nothing! At less than ten yards, it looks like he's going to ram the lead P-51 and the Hun fires one single shot from his 20mm cannon! And Bang! Engine parts, white smoke, glycol, whatnot from the lead P-51 is everywhere, and that unfortunate Mustang begins a gentle roll to the right.

I try to watch the Mustang down, but cannot, Now my full attention is on the Hun! Zoom. We fly through the two Mustangs (he was taken POW). Now the advantage of the P-51 is really apparent, as in a dive I am catching up to the Me109 faster than a runaway freight train. I press the trigger for only a second then I let up on the trigger, I believe at that time I was about 250 yards distant, but the Hun was really pulling lots' of negative and positive g's and pulling up to the horizon. He levels out and then does a vertical tail stand! And next thing I know, he's using his built up velocity from the dive to make a vertical ninety degree climb. This guy is really an experienced pilot. I'm in a vertical climb, and my P-51 begins to roll clockwise violently, only by pushing my left rudder almost through the floor can I stop my P-51 from turning. We climb for altitude; in the straight climb that Me109 begins to out distance me, though my built up diving speed makes us about equal in the climb. We climb one thousand fifteen hundred feet, and at eighteen hundred feet, the hun levels his aircraft out. A vertical climb of 1,800 feet! I've never heard of a piston aircraft climbing more than 1,000 feet in a tail stand. At this time we're both down to stall speed, and he levels out. My airspeed indicator reads less than 90 mph! So we level out. I'm really close now to the Me109, less than twenty five yards! Now if I can get my guns on him.........

[GScholz]

Continued...

"At this range, the gunsight is more of nuisance than a help. Next thing, he dumps his flaps fast and I begin to overshoot him! That's not what I want to do, because then he can bear his guns on me. The P-51 has good armor, but not good enough to stop 20mm cannon hits. This Luftwaffe pilot must be one heck of a marksman, I just witnessed him shooting down a P-51 with a single 20mm cannon shot! So I do the same thing, I dump my flaps, and as I start to overshoot him, I pull my nose up, this really slows me down; S-T-A-L-L warning comes on! and I can't see anything ahead of me nor in the rear view mirror. Now I'm sweating everywhere. My eyes are burning because salty sweat keeps blinding me: 'Where is He!?!' I shout to myself. I level out to prevent from stalling. And there he is. Flying on my right side. We are flying side to side, less than twenty feet separates our wingtips. He's smiling and laughing at himself. I notice that he has a red heart painted on his aircraft, just below the cockpit. The nose and spinner are painted black. It's my guess that he's a very experienced ace from the Russian front. His tail has a number painted on it: "200". I wonder: what the "two hundred" means!? Now I began to examine his airplane for any bullet hits, afterall, I estimate that I just fired 1,600 rounds at the hun. I cannot see a single bullet hole in his aircraft! I could swear that I must have gotten at least a dozen hits! I keep inspecting his aircraft for any damage. One time, he even lifts his left wing about 15 degrees, to let me see the underside, still no hits! That's impossible I tell myself. Totally impossible. Then I turn my attention back to the "200" which is painted on the tail rudder. German aces normally paint a marker for each victory on their tail. It dawns on me that quick: TWO HUNDRED KILLS !! We fly side by side for five minutes. Those five minutes take centuries to pass. Less than twenty five feet away from me is a Luftwaffe ace, with over two hundred kills. We had been in a slow gradual dive now, my altitude indicates 8,000 feet. I'm panicking now, even my socks are soaked in sweat. The German pilot points at his tail, obviously meaning the "200" victories, and then very slowly and dramatically makes a knife-cutting motion across his throat, and points at me. He's telling me in sign language that I'm going to be his 201 kill! Panic! I'm breathing so hard, it sounds like a wind tunnel with my mask on. My heart rate must have doubled to 170 beats per minute; I can feel my chest, thump-thump and so.

This goes on for centuries, and centuries. The two of us flying at stall speed, wingtip to wingtip. I think more than once of simply ramming him. He keeps watching my ailerons, maybe that's what he expects me to do. We had heard of desperate pilots who, after running out of ammunition, would commit suicide by ramming an enemy plane. Then I decide that I can Immelmann out of the situation, and I began to climb, but because my flaps are down, my Mustang only climbs about one hundred feet, pitches over violently to the right and stalls. The next instant I'm dangerously spinning, heading ninety degrees vertically down! And the IAS reads 300 mph! My P-51 just falls like a rock to the earth! I hold the yoke in the lower left corner and sit on the left rudder, flaps up, and apply FULL POWER! I pull out of the dive at about 500 feet, level out, (I began to black out so with my left hand I pinch my veins in my neck to stop blackout). I scan the sky for anything! There's not a plane in the sky, I dive to about fifty feet elevation, heading towards Italy. I fly at maximum power for about ten minutes, and then reduce my rpm (to save gasoline), otherwise the P-51 has very limited range at full power. I fly like this for maybe an hour, no planes in the vicinity; all the time I scan the sky, check my rear view mirrors.

I never saw the Me109 with the red heart again. At the mess I mention the Me109 with the red heart and "200" written on the tail. That's when the whole room, I mean everybody, gets instantly quiet. Like you could hear a pin drop. Two weeks later the base commander shows me a telex: "....according to intelligence, the German pilot with a red heart is Eric Hartmann who has downed 250 aircraft and there is a reward of fifty thousand dollars offered by Stalin for shooting him down. I've never before heard of a cash reward for shooting down an enemy ace ... "

[Bear76]

True, but remember there are those in game who don't care for the low and slow, flap and gear dropping antics. 

FYI - These are usually the same people who complain about being picked by someone using a 51 in a manner consistent with it's design parameters. 

For others it's not that they don't care, it's that they can't.

[Arbiter]

For others it's not that they don't care, it's that they can't.

Completely agree.   

[BnZs]

Scholz, that is an incredible story, thanks for posting it! 

 But what shows is a P-51 pilot following the 109 flown by the Luftwaffe ace of aces maneuver for maneuver, right down to the slow speed end of the envelope. Maneuvering almost as well as a 109 is a thing I feel like I can do with the AHII P-47D-11, I don't feel like the P-51 will do it as well, and again this is odd, given where the two planes were historically ranked on agility.

But you know, given the P-51's popularity and other excellent attributes, if they turned as well or modestly better than the D-11, I think the D model would have to be a perk ride. And what would the effect be if new players clicked on the most popular WWII plane in our culture and were greeted by the message "You don't have enough perks for that model"?