comparing

[Bear76]

Completely agree.   

Acceptance is your first step. Be happy to help you learn. 

[Arbiter]

Learn?   

Ok, got to admit that's a good one. 

Keep on trolling, Bearie.

[muzik]

Reference the 51 and how it was flown in combat, take a peek at these encounter reports.  Scroll down to "Flap use"…some interesting reports there.  One I remember said he was flaps out, 130IAS, on the deck turning with a 109.  From reading these reports it looks like guys did what they had to do to get a shot. 

I'm not saying that what we see in game is realistic.

Fricken AWESOME post.

 I always suspected there were instances of heavy flap use like we see in game but thought it was rare because I haven't seen any accounts of it. another reason why I wondered was the flight model in IL-2. I don't have a lot of faith in their flight model but the instant flap destruction seemed reasonable above certain airspeed even if their data is off. That likely came down to the quality of craftsmanship from country to country.

 from what I can see in those reports American flaps must've been pretty tough because at least two of those reports describes dropping full flaps in what sounded like high-speed dives. 

It's nearly impossible to imagine pilots were more afraid of turning in an abused airframe to their ground crews than they were of getting shot up if they didn't take drastic action. If I recall, either Maguire, Bong or both were known to cause heavy stress damage to their frames. Popping rivets and wrinkling the skin. I know they weren't the only ones.

I think I'm sticking with the opinion that the way we fly in aces high is realistic, it was just relatively rare for more than one reason.

hell, this report

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/353-cundy-14jan45.jpg

sounds exactly like aces high, five ponies spraying and praying from long range, trying to kill a helpless 190 trying to ditch when another one comes in to clear their 12.  LOL

[Changeup]

Wow.  No wonder they got rotated after 30 missions or however many.   They'd have gotten as bored as we are at the hording, lol

[Bear76]

Learn?   

Ok, got to admit that's a good one. 

Keep on trolling, Bearie.

Your emoticons must have seen you fly 

[Arbiter]

Your emoticons must have seen you fly 

I'm not disputing I could learn something from you.  The question is what exactly could you teach me and why on earth would I want to learn?

Since I returned to the game and the forum, you have sent me a harassing PM and made snide little comments in response to my posts.  In response, I did a little research.  Going back though your posts and those of a few of your compatriots I was struck by how many are derogatory in nature.  Any time someone disagrees with you or one of your squad mates, they are labeled, harassed and ridiculed without mercy.  It appears you and those like you treat this behavior as a game for your amusement.  Wow, some game.  It sure discourages me from letting my own kids play this game or recommend it to other parents for their kids to play.

You are, in my mind, the very epitome those that keep driving me away from this game.  I hope you get something from your silly harassment, because I think many in here don't.  It's your attitude, and that of those like you, that is slowly but surely driving people from this game.  So enjoy it while it lasts.

I think I'll go back to flying other games with people who don't beat their chests, make fun of others and conduct themselves like a 15-year old rather than an adult. 

[Pepprr]

Armbiter,

After going back through some of your posts, it seems that you are the one that has started with everything in pretty much every thread.  You, yourself even admitted...

Quote from: Arbiter on February 06, 2014, 12:40:08 PM
No worries man.  I also admit it was just a wee bit trollish.  I figured a few of your more vocal squadees would saddle up.   Wink

Don't understand why you troll just to get mad and say they have a bad attitude if somebody bites.  You came looking for it and thrive off of it and trying to make others look
bad when everyone that can read can see what you are doing is just kind of silly.   
Trust me, it wasn't the star wars reference.   

....oh, and have a nice day!   

[Bear76]

I'm not disputing I could learn something from you.  The question is what exactly could you teach me and why on earth would I want to learn?

Since I returned to the game and the forum, you have sent me a harassing PM and made snide little comments in response to my posts.  In response, I did a little research.  Going back though your posts and those of a few of your compatriots I was struck by how many are derogatory in nature.  Any time someone disagrees with you or one of your squad mates, they are labeled, harassed and ridiculed without mercy.  It appears you and those like you treat this behavior as a game for your amusement.  Wow, some game.  It sure discourages me from letting my own kids play this game or recommend it to other parents for their kids to play.

You are, in my mind, the very epitome those that keep driving me away from this game.  I hope you get something from your silly harassment, because I think many in here don't.  It's your attitude, and that of those like you, that is slowly but surely driving people from this game.  So enjoy it while it lasts.

I think I'll go back to flying other games with people who don't beat their chests, make fun of others and conduct themselves like a 15-year old rather than an adult. 

Bye

[BluBerry]

Armbiter,

After going back through some of your posts, it seems that you are the one that has started with everything in pretty much every thread.  You, yourself even admitted...

from: Arbiter on February 06, 2014, 12:40:08 PM
No worries man.  I also admit it was just a wee bit trollish.  I figured a few of your more vocal squadees would saddle up.  

Don't understand why you troll just to get mad and say they have a bad attitude if somebody bites.  You came looking for it and thrive off of it and trying to make others look
bad when everyone that can read can see what you are doing is just kind of silly.    
Trust me, it wasn't the star wars reference.  

....oh, and have a nice day!  

[BluBerry]

oh and Pepprr, I will teach you how to quote stuff from other posts if you want.. its super simple and will make you look more profesh. 

[GScholz]

Scholz, that is an incredible story, thanks for posting it! 

 But what shows is a P-51 pilot following the 109 flown by the Luftwaffe ace of aces maneuver for maneuver, right down to the slow speed end of the envelope. Maneuvering almost as well as a 109 is a thing I feel like I can do with the AHII P-47D-11, I don't feel like the P-51 will do it as well, and again this is odd, given where the two planes were historically ranked on agility.

But you know, given the P-51's popularity and other excellent attributes, if they turned as well or modestly better than the D-11, I think the D model would have to be a perk ride. And what would the effect be if new players clicked on the most popular WWII plane in our culture and were greeted by the message "You don't have enough perks for that model"?

You're welcome.    What you don't seem to realize is that without flaps or with only combat flaps the P-51D is very close to a 109G in flat turning performance in this game. Just like it was in that encounter.


These numbers are from Mosq's sustained turn list:

P51D, no flaps, 25% fuel, radius: 780.3 feet,  rate: 18.3 dps
P51D, 1 notch of flaps, 25% fuel, radius: 759.6 feet, rate: 18.9 dps
Bf 109-G14 (the 109 model Thompson fought), no flaps, 25% fuel, radius: 672.2 feet, rate: 20.0 dps

A real turner:
A6M2 Zero, no flaps, 25% fuel, radius: 376.8 feet, rate: 27.2 dps

As you can see the two aircraft are not that different with the 109 having marginally better turning performance. A more realistic MA setup would be to give the 109 more fuel, at least 50%, and then they would be even more closely matched.

The problem you face in a Pony fighting a 109 in this game is that we drop flaps a lot more than what they did in real life, and a 109G with full flaps out turns a Pony easily.

[LCADolby]

Wow, some game.  It sure discourages me from letting my own kids play this game or recommend it to other parents for their kids to play.

conduct themselves like a 15-year old rather than an adult. 

[/snippy snip]

You're seriously saying that you don't want their kids playing because the player-base acts like kids. 

I'd say your kids and their kids would fit in quiet well here.

[BnZs]

Scholz: These numbers actually show the G-14 having a significant advantage in dogfighting. But as the physics of the matter imply the 109 will have the advantage to one extent or the other, I will leave it there. What is harder to dismiss is the fact that in AH the P51 cannot sustain as small a turn radius as the P47D-11, a heavier wingloaded aircraft with a higher stall speed, with or without flaps.

[GScholz]

Then perhaps you should take a closer look at the P-47 and not the P-51.

[BnZs]

Then perhaps you should take a closer look at the P-47 and not the P-51.

Among AH planes, the D-11 is not the odd man out when it comes to turn performance in relation to these physical parameters, the P-51 is.