109 out turning a spit

[Widewing]

I just watched a video on this.

Skip Holm says a Bf-109 - f model will out turn a spit.

Keep in mind skip fly's both aircraft

Your thoughts

Listen to the video closely. Skip never said that. The owner of the 109 said that.

[-ammo-]

Just finished Galland's book; The First and the Last.  In a round about way, he states the 109-F was the best, most pure as a fighter, of the 109 series.  He said starting with the G series the modifications always included a new "hump" taking away from the clean lines of the original design.  I though it was interesting.

[Debrody]

The 109f out turns spit8 and even the mighty 16.

109F under the right hands can easily down a spitfire.

Its your 109F outturning an above average Spitfire. My 109 had pretty hard difficulties when i was trying to hang with Spits.

[JOACH1M]

Its your 109F outturning an above average Spitfire. My 109 had pretty hard difficulties when i was trying to hang with Spits.

Just have to do a couple field mods and your 109f will be just like mine.

[Latrobe]

Just have to do a couple field mods and your 109f will be just like mine.

Or do what I do. Wait for Jo to finish putting all the field mods on his 109 and then steal it. 

[hlbly]

Yup that video sure was packed with objective factual material 

Did you read the comments Richard ? The people on the Spit side gave sources for their information. Bellator and company gave none. I also find the comment that German AC fuel was all synthetic suspect. Texas fathead was a real jerk. I like how he would not give the data asked for, to identify the Mk. IX he supposedly flew. I have a question for all. Bellators claim that wartime comparative tests were unreliable seems fishy to me. Wasn't this data used to teach pilots how to beat the enemy machines ?

[morfiend]

 I have never flown a real 109 or spitfire,so I can only comment on ingame performance.

  In AH the spit has a slight advantage until the speeds bleed down to just under 200mph,190 to be exact then the 109 can drop a notch of flaps and start to gain angles on the spit. This will continue down to about 150mph when the advantage strats to swing back to the spit,however the spit should be dead before this happens if the 109 driver has an idea of what they are doing.

  Using Mosq's imfo doesnt tell all the tail because he doesnt test all the flap settings just all or nothing and that doesnt show where any advantages are gained with say 2 notches of flaps!

  YMMV.


     

[Zacherof]

Agreed.  109F is a nasty little bugger but in my experience only the very good pilots know and use it with any regularity.  When I see a K4 in the LWMA I don't give it much thought other than keeping an eye on it i.e. so many fly the K4 you really won't know how good the person is until you observe them for a bit or during the first pass / merge.  On the other hand, when I see a 109F I pay a bit more attention....almost always the pilot is above average (if not great) in the ACM / skill department.

some one say taters?

[Hoplite]

some one say taters?

Only a danger if they hit something.  I'm just saying the majority of K4 jockies I run across are average pilots....not that all of them are average.  I find the opposite to be true with the 109F.

[GScholz]

Eric Brown said that the 109F was the best fighter in the world when it first entered service. He was probably right. As for the G he said: "Longevity of service has never characterised the fighter. Indeed, until the last decade or so it was possible to count the years in the firstline lifespan of the average fighter aircraft on the fingers of one hand. Tending to prove the rule have been the few noteworthy exceptions to be found in the annals of fighter development, perhaps the most outstanding of these being Professor Willy Messerchmitt's Bf 109. There was, in fact, nothing mysterious about the Bf 109. It was simply a well-conceived, soundly designed fighter that maintained during maturity the success that attended its infancy... By the time the evolution of Willy Messerchmitt's basic design had reached the G-series, it was no longer a great fighter, but it was still a sound all-rounder and the Bf 109G had greater flexibility from some aspects than preceding sub-types."

[Chalenge]

. . ,190 to be exact then the 109 can drop a notch of flaps and start to gain angles on the spit.

To be precise. . . 109s don't have notches. I doubt very much 109 pilots ever used flaps in combat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nocUM2otPUw

[bozon]

To be precise. . . 109s don't have notches. I doubt very much 109 pilots ever used flaps in combat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nocUM2otPUw

You'll find an anecdote for just about anything. There was always the odd guy that used flaps, lowered gears, opened the bomb bay door, flashed the nav lights, opened the canopy and flapped his hands... etc, and they all will swear that this is what helped them win the fight. That does not mean that is was a normal thing to do or that it actually gave any benefit.

  In AH the spit has a slight advantage until the speeds bleed down to just under 200mph,190 to be exact then the 109 can drop a notch of flaps and start to gain angles on the spit. This will continue down to about 150mph when the advantage strats to swing back to the spit,however the spit should be dead before this happens if the 109 driver has an idea of what they are doing.

  Using Mosq's imfo doesnt tell all the tail because he doesnt test all the flap settings just all or nothing and that doesnt show where any advantages are gained with say 2 notches of flaps!

Mosq's turn performance lists are difficult to use because they only state the smallest radius and optimal turn rate, but for every plane this is achieved at different speeds. The even bigger problem is that turns in actual turn fights are almost never sustained turns.

[FLS]

A couple of quotes.

Me 109 F/G:
"- Did pilots like the slats on the wings of the 109?
Yes, pilots did like them, since it allowed them better positions in dogfights along with using the flaps. These slats would also deploy slightly when the a/c was reaching stall at higher altitudes showing the pilot how close they were to stalling.....this was also useful when you were drunk "
- Franz Stigler, German fighter ace. 28 victories. Interview of Franz Stigler.

Me 109 E:
"The Bf 109s also had leading edge slats. When the 109 was flown, advertently or inadvertently, too slow, the slats shot forward out of the wing, sometimes with a loud bang which could be heard above the noise of the engine. Many times the slats coming out frightenened young pilots when they flew the Bf 109 for the first time in combat. One often flew near the stalling speed in combat, not only when flying straight and level but especially when turning and climbing. Sometimes the slats would suddenly fly out with a bang as if one had been hit, especially when one had throttled back to bank steeply. Indeed many fresh young pilots thought they were pulling very tight turns even when the slats were still closed against the wing. For us, the more experienced pilots, real manoeuvring only started when the slats were out. For this reason it is possible to find pilots from that period (1940) who will tell you that the Spitfire turned better than the Bf 109. That is not true. I myself had many dogfights with Spitfires and I could always out-turn them.
One had to enter the turn correctly, then open up the engine. It was a matter of feel. When one noticed the speed becoming critical - the aircraft vibrated - one had to ease up a bit, then pull back again, so that in plan the best turn would have looked like an egg or a horizontal ellipse rather than a circle. In this way one could out-turn the Spitfire - and I shot down six of them doing it. This advantage to the Bf 109 soon changed when improved Spitfires were delivered."
- Erwin Leykauf, German fighter pilot, 33 victories. Source: Messerschmitt Bf109 ja Saksan Sotatalous by Hannu Valtonen; Hurricane & Messerschmitt, Chaz Bowyer and Armand Van Ishoven.

[nrshida]

To be precise. . . 109s don't have notches. I doubt very much 109 pilots ever used flaps in combat.

Hans-Joachim Marseille.

[Chalenge]

Hans-Joachim Marseille.

What? Did he write about his flying the 109? He died in the war, so there's not much chance he did.