Author Topic: 109 out turning a spit  (Read 8668 times)

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2014, 06:33:56 PM »
It's pretty irrelevant really. Especially for people with proper programmable flightsim gear.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline FLOOB

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3058
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2014, 07:22:42 PM »
Sure, for 109s and those that function like it.  Others like the Spitfire would just need to press the button.
+1
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans” - John Steinbeck

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2014, 11:56:33 PM »
In the video he was leisurely turning the wheel using his fingertips. One revolution of the wheel should produce about 10 degrees of flaps.

If you watch the video closely his palm is on the circumference of the wheel and that's the affordance that control permits. You haven't specified your definition of 'easy' but this operation would require a lot more force in flight to overcome the air resistance. There will be considerable leverage advantage at the expense of long travel. So it might have been 'easy' in respect to force but it certainly isn't fast to deploy. Even though the gentleman in the video seems to have a 'contemporary build' shall we say, the limiting ergonomic factor is his elbow which cannot travel back any further because of the cockpit restrictions.

10° was not Hans-Joachim Marseille's definition of combat flaps (the term I've read for the setting he used was 'landing flaps' (full flaps I think)). I'm fairly sure not your definition either when flying the 109F in game?


Instead of hitting a key for flaps you should have to hold down a key. Just like we do for trim.

Analogue flaps would be a nicer idea (as a second option to what we have now), then for the 109, say, you could choose the degree you want precisely. The delay between what you've ordered and what you get could be modeled in.

Lot of variety in flaps, Spitfire flip switch two position, N1K auto combat flaps, etc.

"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2014, 05:19:44 AM »
One notch of flaps in-game is 10 degrees iirc. The combat flaps setting in the P-51 is also 10 degrees.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2014, 05:44:18 AM »
I made these pictures at RAF Duxford a while back:-








There were also these lines on the canopy:



For dive bombing?

"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2014, 05:47:25 AM »
Incidentally, feel free to use my pictures for whatever you want to do with them. Although I painstakingly arranged the photons individually myself, they are ©, ®, and ™ free and I will not charge you a penny if I found you have laminated them and hung them in your bathroom.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 05:49:58 AM by nrshida »
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline LCADolby

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7482
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2014, 05:51:08 AM »
Interesting to see the use of the dive bombing horizon guide.
JG5 "Eismeer"
YouTube+Twitch - 20Dolby10

MW148 LW301
"BE a man and shoot me in the back" - pez

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2014, 05:51:42 AM »
Very nice Shida. Thanks for sharing.  :aok
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2014, 06:03:26 AM »
Welcome. Have two or three more I'll share later but I must pop out now  :bolt:
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline BBP

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 287
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2014, 08:23:37 AM »
Its a "BEAST" alright but you better be a good shot. 1 20 and 2 machine guns in the nose. Try it and see. Oh yes I've out turned spits and even had them auger trying to keep up with my turning!

KIMOSABE

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2014, 08:51:11 AM »






















G-2 Trop if I recall correctly.  :salute
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2014, 09:34:19 AM »
Who put the 109 here? its blocking the view to the Mosquito!   :mad: :bhead

Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2014, 10:00:36 AM »
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2014, 10:07:47 AM »
Who put the 109 here? its blocking the view to the Mosquito!   :mad: :bhead

(Image removed from quote.)


Another one here for you Bozon:-

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,359866.0.html
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline PJ_Godzilla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2661
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2014, 10:27:23 AM »
The spit 8,9,16 all have basically the same turn rate and sustained turning circle, and they are all significantly better than the seafire. On the list spit8 is 21, spit16 is 22, spit9 is 23. But the seafire is 37 better than the la5(38), but worse than the la7(36). The spit14 comes in at a mind boggling 50, worse than the tempest. Which completely contradicts RAF tactical trial reports.

It seems that aircraft weight makes a HUGE difference, as evidenced by the seafire(37) vs the spitV(14) and by the 202(30) vs the 205(60).

Make that WEIGHT per unit Wing Area (wingloading).

For those who haven't seen it: radius(min) = 2*W/(A*rho*CL*sin(theta)

Of course, we're more interested in rate of turn - that''s how you get the angle on someone. IIRC, that'll be something like the radius (min) at corner speed. This last, and no - I didn't read every comment in the thread - seems to have been neglected in this discussion. However, it is critical and often explains  these anecdotes we see coming in: "so-and-so <expletive compund word> out-turned mt A6M2 in an FW190 A-8! There's something wrong with the flight model! HiTECH is a fraud! Blah-blah-blah, other assorted distortions. NO. All the anecdote really implies is that the clown doesn't know how to fly his A6M2.  That said, I understand the best speed for turning in the Franz is somewhere in the magical-feeling 250-325 range. I don't fly with my head down, but I try to cultivate a feel for that speed. I also not ethat I can't deploy flap at that speed so I kind of assume that, if I'm deploying flap, I'm desperate and off optimal.... Please correct me if I've gotten any of this wrong. I'm pretty busy and don't get to practice AH as much as I'd like and my Aero Engin schooling is long in the past.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 10:32:08 AM by PJ_Godzilla »
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.