Author Topic: 109 out turning a spit  (Read 8510 times)

Offline Skyyr

  • persona non grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2014, 01:10:04 PM »

There were also these lines on the canopy

For dive bombing?


Those are most likely horizon reference lines used during maneuvering. You see them quite often in high-performance aerobatic aircraft.

Notice the tips of the wing - those are sighting rods used for aerobatic maneuvering:

Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - 296

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 30-11

KOTH Wins: 6, Egos Broken: 1000+

Mmmmm... tears.

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15737
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2014, 01:56:58 PM »
I made these pictures at RAF Duxford a while back:-

Nice pics, and thanks for posting! <S>

I think that those are from RAF Museum Hendon.  Did you look there at the world's only remaining Typhoon?

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2014, 02:21:51 PM »
Nice pics, and thanks for posting! <S>

I think that those are from RAF Museum Hendon.  Did you look there at the world's only remaining Typhoon?

Yes they are Brooke. I think the Tiffie was hanging from the roof. Was a few years back. The Ki-100 has been moved to Cosford now. I saw it again when I photographed the second Mosquito.

 :salute
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15737
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2014, 04:04:42 PM »
I was amazed that there is only one Typhoon left in existence.  That is very sad information.

<S> Tiffie!



and <S> to Wurz and SF3, whom I met at the Hendon museum!  They are great guys, Wurz and SF3.


Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2014, 05:57:55 PM »
Did the RAF surplus out warplanes to the general population like the USA did in the post-war period?


I was amazed that there is only one Typhoon left in existence.  That is very sad information.

<S> Tiffie!

(Image removed from quote.)

and <S> to Wurz and SF3, whom I met at the Hendon museum!  They are great guys, Wurz and SF3.

(Image removed from quote.)
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #80 on: March 07, 2014, 02:22:45 AM »
I was amazed that there is only one Typhoon left in existence.  That is very sad information.

<S> Tiffie!

(Image removed from quote.)


Now you come to mention it, yes the Tiffie was on the ground in another hall with a Napier Sabre on display next to it. It was a Tempest in the Bf109G-2 / Mosquito hall. It was suspended from cables high above all of the other aircraft. Looked to me like he was looking for a pick.  :old:


"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #81 on: March 07, 2014, 03:26:41 AM »
One revolution of the wheel should produce about 10 degrees of flaps.

Actually it is two full revolutions per 10 degrees of flap.

Finnish test pilot Pekka Kokko mentions in his flight test report of the Bf109G-2 that "winding down the flaps takes a longish time (~25 seconds) and should therefore be started high enough and at sufficient distance from the airfield".


this operation would require a lot more force in flight to overcome the air resistance.

The gearing of the mechanism makes it very light, that's why it takes so many revolutions to get the flaps fully down so the force isn't an issue.

Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8802
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #82 on: March 07, 2014, 09:45:45 AM »
I was amazed that there is only one Typhoon left in existence.  That is very sad information.

<S> Tiffie!


There is an early B series Typhoon in the French War Museum in Caen. It is suspended from the ceiling. It is not fully original...



Watch this video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qexMo-2ZLos
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 10:12:32 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2014, 10:02:37 AM »
Actually it is two full revolutions per 10 degrees of flap.

Finnish test pilot Pekka Kokko mentions in his flight test report of the Bf109G-2 that "winding down the flaps takes a longish time (~25 seconds) and should therefore be started high enough and at sufficient distance from the airfield".


The gearing of the mechanism makes it very light, that's why it takes so many revolutions to get the flaps fully down so the force isn't an issue.



At two full revolutions for ten degrees I believe you. That was an assumption I made based on Mr. Scholz's revolutions.  :salute



"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #84 on: March 07, 2014, 10:04:43 AM »
You haven't specified your definition of 'easy' but this operation would require a lot more force in flight to overcome the air resistance.

Missed that one...

Why do some people insist on thinking that? Flaps are not fundamentally different from any other control surface like the ailerons or elevator. Like other control surfaces they can be balanced internally or externally to equalize any aerodynamic force. The flaps only change the curvature of the wing, nothing more. In some older large aircraft the elevators weren't even connected to any controls... They were free-floating, but were controlled aerodynamically by servo tabs. The pilot moved the controls which moved the servo tab and then the servo tab moved the elevator, which was otherwise free-floating. Combined they change the curvature of the horizontal stabilizer changing how much lift it produces.

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15737
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2014, 12:55:14 PM »

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2014, 01:08:52 PM »
Why do some people insist on thinking that?

It was just based on your suggested very short flap wheel movement (implying that the force would go up). Some aircraft had heavy controls at speed because of short sticks and big surfaces.


...servo tab...

Yes I am familiar with those. The servo tab also has the advantage of leverage.


"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline FLOOB

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3058
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #87 on: March 07, 2014, 01:14:05 PM »

Bros like they hos.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans” - John Steinbeck

Offline -ammo-

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5124
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2014, 01:30:08 PM »
There is an early B series Typhoon in the French War Museum in Caen. It is suspended from the ceiling. It is not fully original...

(Image removed from quote.)

Watch this video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qexMo-2ZLos


WW -  thanks for the link.  New media for me
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: 109 out turning a spit
« Reply #89 on: March 07, 2014, 01:34:22 PM »
It was just based on your suggested very short flap wheel movement (implying that the force would go up). Some aircraft had heavy controls at speed because of short sticks and big surfaces.


Yes I am familiar with those. The servo tab also has the advantage of leverage.


Yes, but you are missing the essential point: Lowering flaps (or actuating any other control surface for that matter) does not in of itself create an aerodynamic force that counteracts it. All you are doing is increasing the curvature of the wing, and from that increased curvature you are increasing the angle of attack of the wing as well since the wing's chord line shifts with the lowering of the trailing edge. In the 109 this induces a nose down movement in the aircraft as the wing, now with its increased curvature, centers itself against the airflow.




The controls of many aircraft stiffen up at high speed because of shock waves forming over the control surfaces, usually bounced off of other parts of the aircraft. The P-38 suffered greatly from this due to its twin-boom tail. By design or luck, unlike many other WWII fighters the Spitfire was blessed with very light control forces even at extreme dive speeds. They were in fact considered dangerously light since pilots could easily over stress the aircraft.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."