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Author Topic: How the hell do you do that?  (Read 2042 times)

Offline gatt

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How the hell do you do that?
« on: January 30, 2001, 03:35:00 AM »
I often see a strange maneuver in arena. It happens with high wing-load a/c like Hogs, Focke-Wulfs and Typhoons. Sometimes with Nikis.

Well, with my C.205V I'm chasing a Hog at 350-400mph TAS, 1,500-2,000yds distance, and closing (one hundred yards every some seconds, that is). Suddenly I see the distance dropping very quickly. I understand the Hog has just done a 180deg change of direction, and hes pointing to me with an HO attack. In other words, the Hog had turned with a very small (or no) radius and getting very little (or no) lateral separation. I have seen this thing done many times by very good pilots like Torque.

Yesterday I saw Zeke and his Hog doing this thing. I was 800-1,000yds and closing on him. I spotted him rocking his wings violently and voilą ... he went straight to me H2H after a 180deg change of direction, almost on the same axis ... and after that he was fast and accelerating. Eventually my wingie shot him down, but only after 2-3 of those weird maneuvers. We were both puzzled.
 
Can someone explain me how the thing work? Is it a trick? Thank for your help and ... sorry for my written english.

[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 01-30-2001).]
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"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline straffo

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2001, 04:19:00 AM »
snap roll ?
hehe  
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Offline gatt

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2001, 04:26:00 AM »
Snap-whatever, but plz explain it  
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"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Jochen

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2001, 04:32:00 AM »
Same thing has happened to me few times and could not figure out what it is. Seems like the con is flying straight ahead, then stop and in next second he is coming towards you at seemingly full speed.

I would think even with snap roll you cant do perfect 180 degree turn at ful speed and not to lose significant amount of energy.

Well, it happens so rarely that it does not bother me too much.

------------------
jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

Offline gatt

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2001, 04:53:00 AM »
Hmmm, do we have R/C models, Extra's and Sukoi's or WWII fighters here? Jokes apart I'd like to hear something from trainers or snap-rolls wizards.
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"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline straffo

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2001, 04:57:00 AM »
It is pretty hard for me to explain in a correct english this maneuver  
When the situation is completly deseperate I try to make a break turn stalling the  internal wing plus giving a hard rudder kick inside the virage (doing a kind of uncomplete snap roll) to get the HO but it almost always fail because of lag issues and weakness of the Yak guns.

And after you have no more E to spend ...

 
Quote
I would think even with snap roll you cant do perfect 180 degree turn at ful speed and not to lose significant amount of energy.

That's the "drwabck" <= drawback   you see how I type  

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Offline straffo

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2001, 05:01:00 AM »
Forgot to say it's like entering a controlled spin and just doing 1/2 of the 1st turn.
I can do something like that in just my favorites ride : Yak an Tiffi in any other plane I lawdart ASAP ...
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Offline Tac

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2001, 06:33:00 AM »
Id like to see a film of that!

Hogs and N1ks can cut engine, do a wingover which near-stalls the plane and go full throttle when the nose is pointed down. You can turn almost on a dime that way, though you have to keep your nose down till you get 300 speed again.
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Offline hitech

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2001, 08:50:00 AM »
There is no quick reverse manuver like a snap roll, snap rolls do not change your flight path very much. Simple way to see whats going on is to film the fight. My guess is that the quick turn was caused by some form of tail slide , only way to know for sure is film.

HiTech

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Offline straffo

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2001, 09:17:00 AM »
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Offline gatt

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2001, 09:24:00 AM »
Ok HT, I'll try to film something. I have only to remember it ...

LOL Straffo  
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"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline MANDOBLE

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2001, 09:56:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by straffo:

http://www.smithandfeeble.com/tricktips/tail_slide.html  

Before getting mand with this link and the language used, be aware this is skateboard related.

Yes Gatt, I've seen the effect you describe several times, only with F4U. Usually the con is 1.5 - 2k in front of you, then it seems it reverses with no lateral or vertical displacement. I think the F4U uses its rudder authority to slide violently while cutting power and banking, then pulling hard while compensating with opposite rudder, nose a bit low and power up again. Cant understand other way.
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Offline Westy

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2001, 10:09:00 AM »
I've seen a few oddities, that I chaulk up to the net. Nothing too odd

But I have to say that the guys who make me drop my jaw and wonder how the hell they did what they did are the 13TAS guys.

Man. They can fly the P-51 like no others in any other plane. And I  do not think for a moment it's a cheat, or they are gaming the game, they just know thier plane inside and out. I just wish I'd filmed last night so I could try and see how they do thier reversals and keep alot of their "E"  

 I imagine others are the same; be it the Niki, F4U, Spit or what have you.  

  -Westy
 
-Westy
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-towd_

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2001, 10:14:00 AM »
you are just dicoveing this move ? this and the on demand 3 axis spin with at will recovery ( maindew is best known but many others) allow people who really dont use acm as it is in the book to dominate the arena. and i for one think it sucks. drives me mad to chase a guy down close within guns range and see him spin and leave on a totaly diffent flight path and get this losing little e.
wasent like this before the flight model was changed to fix e retention.
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Offline straffo

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How the hell do you do that?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2001, 10:16:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Before getting mand with this link and the language used, be aware this is skateboard related.

Shhhhhh  

I'm about to left work early today (I have not been able to do that for a too LONG time and I'm pretty happy) that's perhaps why I keep joking since noon  
And now for something completly different
(if you feel nauseus don't look at that or eat some bananas 1st   ) http://perso.club-internet.fr/billeau/cplr01.mpg  
try to get in his 6 ...
 
Quote

Yes Gatt, I've seen the effect you describe several times, only with F4U. Usually the con is 1.5 - 2k in front of you, then it seems it reverses with no lateral or vertical displacement. I think the F4U uses its rudder authority to slide violently while cutting power and banking, then pulling hard while compensating with opposite rudder, nose a bit low and power up again. Cant understand other way.

Yep you got it, a kind of hard core Wing Over but it's no reserved to the F4U the Yak can do it also.

<edit> fumbled fu* as usual ...

[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 01-30-2001).]
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