Author Topic: Murder or Duty?  (Read 1272 times)

Offline Volron

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2014, 06:10:49 PM »

well since you jinxed it, I say if it doesn't end well you should get a 1 week suspension.  :)

BUT, YOU said the word "jinxed".  Not suppose to to be the first one to say "jinxed".  So you'd be joining me for that week vacation. :lol
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2014, 06:22:36 PM »
I will say that in the last few years this sort of stuff is in the public eye a lot more, and also due to that seems to be happening a lot more often too.

The LAPD a year or two ago, chasing after that armed and dangerous x-cop I think he was?  Anyhow, the LAPD accidentally shot up a truck of the same model and color in the dark, containing 2 older aged Asian ladies - wrong race, sex, and everything else, a terribly bad shoot.  Also, enroute to that very same bad shooting, the LAPD encountered another unlucky soul driving the same make and model vehicle - they rammed him at full speed and unloaded a bunch of rounds into the truck, luckily missing the occupants.  I've never heard about what punishment if any happened over that, as the LAPD policy is to keep the punishment classified.  The police likely weren't fired from the articles I read.  The 2 woman in Torrance mistakenly shot cost the taxpayers 4.2 million dollars, and 40,000 for a new truck, the initial peace offering from the city, which the lawyer didn't like, hence the 4.2 mil.  Also, the 2 woman stopped doing the delivery job, saying it was "dangerous"...no kidding.  They now clean homes for a living - get that.

It's a tough job, no denying it, and I won't bash the police here or anywhere else for that matter, but brutal mistakes like the former make it a hard thing sometimes to support.  I do understand the police were out of their element, being hunted by one of their own, and having lost an officer to the culprit prior to the "bad shoots". 

Frenchy,

It wasn't even the same model.  They shot up a blue Toyota Tacoma when the guy was driving a Nissan Titan (green IIRC) and they also shot up a Honda Ridgeline as I recall.  The Toyota was the one I referenced earlier, two women delivering papers, one in her 20s and one in her 50s.  Both survived by some miracle.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2014, 06:25:55 PM »
I left work yesterday to go to lunch.  I had my work radio clipped to my pant's front pocket.  we used two way radios to communicate at work as I work at a steel mill.  there was a sheriff's car in the parking lot not a biggie as it is a popular restaurant.  I didnt even know I had the radio with me until the female officer yelled to stop and put my hands up.  I looked around wondering who she was yelling at and what was happening.  then I noticed she had her weapon out and was aiming it at me.  I just froze and raised my arms, my friend didnt even notice anything and kept walking with her yelling at him to stop.  when she noticed that it was a work radio and not a weapon she holstered her weapon.

after about 1/2 an hour and every fricking officer in the city showing up, well almost.  the officer said she was sorry as she thought my radio was a weapon.  I went inside picked up my cold food and went back to work and felt I needed a shower to change my underwear.


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Offline BluBerry

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2014, 06:26:46 PM »
BUT, YOU said the word "jinxed".  Not suppose to to be the first one to say "jinxed".  So you'd be joining me for that week vacation. :lol


bah  :old:

Offline Scherf

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2014, 06:40:37 PM »
murder
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2014, 06:56:11 PM »
Not going to respond to the ancilary situations that some others brought up as they have zero bearing on the original situation.

The guy was obviously coherant, able to put sentences together and well aware of the situation. Given that situation there is no reason to believer he was anything near or resembling helpless or incapable of using the knives. Having one in each hand kind of gives an inkling as to his probable intent. One knife, there may have been some doubt, two indicates he is prepared and intends to use them.

The tape (first youtube link only as I don't trust anything from huff post to be unedited for pure bias intent) is incomplete and we were not given the original call. I don't know if anyone else had been threatened prior to PD arrival.

First off let me state something. There is no requirement that an Officer subject themselves to death or injury prior to taking action. Anyone who thinks there is some kind of tv-land requirement to let the suspect actually attempt to inflict death or harm first is being unrealistic. I have some other words but that would cross skuzzy's line. There is a definite line between an acceptable risk and being stupid in taking a risk. Going up and trying to remove knives from an individual who is prepared, with two out in hand and ready to use them is not taking a risk, it is being beyond stupid. Anyone who thinks it isn't shouldn't be out unsupervised or around moving machinery.

This individual had plenty of opportunity to drop his weapons and comply. He did not. After the flash bang he moves to intercept the dog with a knife before the handler pulled the dog back. That confirmed intent to harm. He removed other options at that point. He was on higher ground in terrain that precludes a quick and precise movement to contact with him to try and have a physical removal of the knives. I would have preferred a taser be used first given the situation however the PD may not have that option. A taser is not universally issued nor approved for use by all law enforcement agencies. Had he been tased and dropped to the ground he could have been instructed, again, to drop the knives then cuffed, had he complied. Had he not complied then the only other option was still deadly force. Tasers are also not a fail proof method of gaining compliance. They are usually effective but not always and anyone who trusts it to work 100% of the time will be disapointed and maybe end up dead.

Anyone who wants to have someone with a knife or knives taken out, hand to hand in a similar situation is welcome to do so on their own. Responding units will be there later to call the morgue truck for you should you fail or an ambulance if you are lucky. That type of action is neither advised nor required by any law enforcement agency or military unit in combat. It makes for great tv and movie scripts where they use rubber knives and everyone follows a script but not in real life. One should never confuse the two.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 06:58:06 PM by Maverick »
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2014, 07:02:09 PM »
I find it funny in a sick way that they opted to use bean bags to make him drop the knives twice after he had already been shot. and he was on his stomach and unable to move.




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Offline Karnak

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2014, 07:07:02 PM »
Sorry,

The officers could have backed away.  They were in no critical danger at the time.  There is caution, and then there is complete devaluation of human life and the authority we've defacto given to police in the US is marching towards devaluation.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 07:08:47 PM by Karnak »
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Offline AAJagerX

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2014, 07:10:16 PM »
What bothered me about the situation was that the dog was sent in at all against someone with knives, when the situation was clearly under control.  That was pretty careless.  Bean bags, pepper spray, tasers, etc. could've been tried before forcing the issue.  Knives vs. assault rifles....  I think they had other options if they were a bit more patient.

Obviously, I wasn't there, but I believe cooler heads could've prevailed in this one.  Tragic and preventable, yes.  Outright murder, no.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 07:12:14 PM by AAJagerX »
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Offline 100Coogn

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2014, 07:22:25 PM »
Murder...

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Offline Gemini

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2014, 07:24:01 PM »
Here is a much clearer video of the incident:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DngOL6LokN4

From this it looks to me like the cops only fired when the dog was in danger of being hurt by the guy wielding his knives.

However, he had just been flashbanged...I don't think it's cool to shoot someone for not complying with instructions after they have just been attacked with a device designed to confuse and disorientate the victim.

The guy was obviously a dangerous, unbalanced person and something needed to be done. But it does seem like better training and less trigger-happy police officers could have made this situation come out a lot better - i.e. without a corpse.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2014, 07:25:22 PM »
Im getting tired of this crap on this forum.
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Offline Easyscor

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2014, 07:42:26 PM »
That was murder.
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Offline craz07

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2014, 08:12:28 PM »
Seemed a tad forward on the draw.. but until you have been in those situations.. you never ever really know where "that line" is until it's too late..  Duty
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Online Shane

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Re: Murder or Duty?
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2014, 08:16:29 PM »
I'd opine it's murder, but not in the first degree. More like manslaughter / excessive force.
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