Author Topic: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series  (Read 5856 times)

Offline Karnak

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #105 on: April 11, 2014, 11:26:53 PM »
We have both made our arguments ad nauseam. We all have our somewhat subjective opinions of what we would like to see in our virtual WWII experience. The debates on the forums can be informative and entertaining. I was surprised how eclipsed P-47s were by P-51s in the popular perception. The more I researched, the more I came to appreciate how the 47 really succeeded on bringing the air war to the enemy, and later became the premier jabo fighter as well at great cost to their crews.
In simplistic terms, it is my opinion that it was the P-47 that broke the back of the Luftwaffe in the west.  The Spitfire held the line against the Luftwaffe then the P-47 broke the Luftwaffe's back in the west and then the P-51 mopped up.

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In popular films like Saving Private Ryan and Redtails razorback jugs are again ignored when they were the actual swarms over the beaches of Normandy and the transition aircraft from P-40s for the Tuskegee squadrons, further reinforcing the misconception. I sincerely hope we can finally get it right in AH, however trivial it may seem. Many important gaps have been getting addressed lately- this is another good candidate.
There are likely many reasons that combine for to cause that.  Availability probably played a large role in what fighter they got for Saving Private Ryan.  The Tuskegee did fly P-51s, so that is only fair.  If we ever got a movie about the 56th Fighter Group we'd get to see some P-47s.


Edit:

I want to add another note about my stance on the P-47D-23.  I don't oppose the addition of the P-47D-23 at this time for the same reasons I oppose the Mustang Mk Ia or cannon armed A-20G.  Unlike those requests the request for the P-47D-23 would have no negative effect on the game.  Our disagreement is merely about the value of the developer time spent on it.  You are asking for a reasonable and appropriate aircraft, not something to be dweeby with that you only want because it seems powerful.  You want it because of its history and role and I respect that.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 11:32:30 PM by Karnak »
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #106 on: April 11, 2014, 11:32:51 PM »
In simplistic terms, it is my opinion that it was the P-47 that broke the back of the Luftwaffe in the west.  The Spitfire held the line against the Luftwaffe then the P-47 broke the Luftwaffe's back in the west and then the P-51 mopped up.


Absolutely agreed.  Absolutely.  I have maintained this position for lo, some four-plus decades.

We have reached one of those steps to Armageddon.  Oldman and Karnak agree.

Time to build another ark.  The end is nigh.

- oldman

Offline Seadog36

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #107 on: April 12, 2014, 12:49:05 AM »
Hollywood is somewhat constrained by trying to condense historical events. In Private Ryan, the fact that there are only 9 flying 47s of which only 2 are Curtis built razorback Gs makes it understandable why they used a pair of the hundred flying mustangs for the production. Retails was predominantly CGI and could have included the P-47 chapter if they didn't think they could skip it and sub 51Ds for the 47D21-23s and 51C&Bs they actually flew. The warships in Peal Harbor gave me a chuckle but that's a whole other story.

Offline Seadog36

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #108 on: April 12, 2014, 09:49:06 AM »
The Spitfire held the line against the Luftwaffe then the P-47 broke the Luftwaffe's back in the west and then the P-51 mopped up.

Mopped up after hard won air supremacy to get the spotlight. I'll be posting tribute pictures from here on out :salute and thanks for all the tough scrutiny.





Jug attacked panzer PzKpfw IV... GVs don't really drive out of 500lb craters in real life...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 10:07:28 AM by Seadog36 »

Offline Seadog36

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #109 on: April 12, 2014, 10:00:14 AM »
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/P-47_Propellers-30nov43.pdf

This letter might shed some light.  They speak of a wide blade prop.

Very cool find Randy~

Offline Seadog36

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #110 on: April 12, 2014, 10:13:41 AM »
FW 190s dream of becoming 47s when they grow up. Move along save, you apparently have nothing to add. The D-11 covers all the C and early variants, just as the A5 covers all the other early 190 variants. It is also available in EW as a perked ride. I promise not to troll your thread if you stop try to hijack this one.

The Jug can swallow them all whole...

Offline Karnak

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #111 on: April 12, 2014, 12:50:08 PM »
I saw Widewing listed the P-47D-21 as an aircraft he thought should be added.  What is the difference between the P-47D-21 and P-47D-23?
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Offline -ammo-

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #112 on: April 12, 2014, 01:17:35 PM »
I saw Widewing listed the P-47D-21 as an aircraft he thought should be added.  What is the difference between the P-47D-21 and P-47D-23?

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_P-47D.html

The fact to be noted is the factory install of the "paddle-blade" prop.  In reality, these were installed in the field as supply's were available. 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 01:20:10 PM by -ammo- »
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Offline Chilli

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #113 on: April 12, 2014, 04:11:44 PM »
What does the P-47D-23 offer than the P-47D-25 does not?

To date all that you have said is that it is the same, but a razorback, which means it only offers a graphical difference, which while nice, is hardly enough justification to add it when there are actual performance gaps in other lines of aircraft.

If adding it actually filled a gap I'd be all in favor of it, but it does not seem to fill any such gap.

My previous post got a lil long winded so I took a knife to it:

Quote
what Seadog is suggesting is more of a correction to the game choices. {snip}
 there could be advantages in a number of areas, such as Scenarios, perk point multipliers, historical skins {snip}
(no wing attachments) {snip}, does virtually cut down on the use of D11's 


To put this into perspective, how did you feel about the Mossie bomber addition?  I do love that plane and both variants, but I never knew that I was missing that option before (ie:  bomber scope, tempest speed, allies aircraft, without a jet engine and perks).

Offline Karnak

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #114 on: April 12, 2014, 05:05:41 PM »
To put this into perspective, how did you feel about the Mossie bomber addition?  I do love that plane and both variants, but I never knew that I was missing that option before (ie:  bomber scope, tempest speed, allies aircraft, without a jet engine and perks).
The two examples are not comparable.  Between the Mossie VI and Mossie XVI you have two aircraft that are extremely different.  Between the P-47D-23 and P-47D-25 you have two extremely similar aircraft.  The closest thing I can think of for Mossies would be somebody asking for the Mossie IX, which would basically be the same as the XVI, except not have the bulged bomb bay and being unable to carry the 'cookie'.  It was a Mossie IX that set the record for the most sorties by an Allied bomber at 213.  I'd oppose that as well, even more than the P-47D-23.
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Offline Chilli

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #115 on: April 12, 2014, 05:42:01 PM »
The two examples are not comparable.  Between the Mossie VI and Mossie XVI you have two aircraft that are extremely different.  Between the P-47D-23 and P-47D-25 you have two extremely similar aircraft.  The closest thing I can think of for Mossies would be somebody asking for the Mossie IX, which would basically be the same as the XVI, except not have the bulged bomb bay and being unable to carry the 'cookie'.  It was a Mossie IX that set the record for the most sorties by an Allied bomber at 213.  I'd oppose that as well, even more than the P-47D-23.

Then it is good that opinions are free, because I found having a Mossie with a bomber scope addition very similar to a Jug with additional wingpoints.  Additionally (a lot of additions  :lol that is the point though), why is the Mossie not of the IX variant, based on what you are saying?

I do get your point about Mossie (no serious pilot would fly bomber version into a fighter duel), but likewise serious attackers would not want to take 1 x 500 lb bomb to a ground fight, especially without adequate fuel to make it home.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 05:48:35 PM by Chilli »

Offline Karnak

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #116 on: April 12, 2014, 06:18:11 PM »
Then it is good that opinions are free, because I found having a Mossie with a bomber scope addition very similar to a Jug with additional wingpoints.  Additionally (a lot of additions  :lol that is the point though), why is the Mossie not of the IX variant, based on what you are saying?
The difference is that we had no glass nosed Mossie whereas we have many P-47s with additional hard points.  That is the problem with the request for the P-47D-23.  It takes developer time that could be used elsewhere and adds very little as it fills a relatively subtle gap.  While I think it should be eventually added, that would be far down the road as there are many gaps that could be filled that are much, much less subtle.

The Mossie IX was probably not added because its production numbers were much lower and the XVI can effectively stand in for it just by blocking the use of the 'cookie', just as the D-25 can effectively stand in for the D-23.

Quote
I do get your point about Mossie (no serious pilot would fly bomber version into a fighter duel), but likewise serious attackers would not want to take 1 x 500 lb bomb to a ground fight, especially without adequate fuel to make it home.
Fortunately those serious attackers can take the P-47D-25, P-47D-40 or P-47N.  While they are not razorbacks that is not nearly so significant a difference as the absence of either guns or a bombsight, depending on which Mossie you propose sub for the other.
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Offline Seadog36

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #117 on: April 12, 2014, 06:43:33 PM »
I saw Widewing listed the P-47D-21 as an aircraft he thought should be added.  What is the difference between the P-47D-21 and P-47D-23?

Here is the breakdown of P-47 development until the first bubbletop from the 368th fighter group web page~

Specifically between the D21 and D23/22 is a there was a slight increase in internal fuel, jettesonable canopy, bullet proof glass and the larger Hamilton or Curtis prop being factory installed. Earlier Ds were retrofitted stateside or in the field as Randy's document demonstrates. From the D-20 on they were able to generate 2300hp factory settings on WEP.

The P-47B was fitted with a Pratt & Whitney R-2800-21 engine rated at 2000 hp. 
The engine drove a 12' 2"diameter Curtiss Electric C542S-A6 propeller. 
The P-47B had an empty weight of 9,346lbs and a maximum loaded weight of 13,360 pounds.
The P-47B was essentially a test model and most were modified and quickly replaced by the P-47C model.
Only 171 P-47B models were built and very few were sent overseas.

Republic P-47C

The first Thunderbolt to be considered truly combat-ready was the P-47C-2-RE.
Perhaps the most important change introduced by this production block was the provision for shackles and
a release mechanism for a bomb or a fuel tank on the underside of the belly.  When carrying a 200-gallon
belly tank the range was extended to 1250 miles at an altitude of 10,000 feet.
The P-47C-5-RE introduced revised radio, instruments, and antenna. Cockpit heating was also introduced.
The P-47C was the first Thunderbolts to see combat in Europe.
602 P-47Cs were delivered by February 1943, when the improved P-47D replaced it on the production line.

Republic P-47D

The Early P-47D differed very little from the P-47C-5-RE.  The P-47D had changes in the turbo
supercharger exhaust system which incorporated an adjustable duct and redesigned vents for the engine
accessory section. Additional cowl flaps were fitted to improve engine cooling airflow. 
More extensive armor protection was provided for the pilot.

Demand for the Thunderbolt was so great that Republic built a new factory at Evansville, Indiana to
augment production of the P-47D.  1050 P-47Ds were ordered from Evansville on January 31, 1942, and
the first Evansville-built P-47D (serial number 42-22250) rolled off the assembly line in September of 1942.
Evansville-built P-47Ds were distinguished by the use of the RA manufacturer letter code rather than RE.
Curtis built 354 P-47's designated P-47G, these were identical as the Republic versions, however most
Curtis built P-47's remained stateside and were used by training units.

All early Thunderbolts used the R-2800-21 engine. Water injection capability was added to this engine
beginning with the D-4-RA and D-5-RE production blocks. Provision was made for the mounting of
15-gallon tank carrying a water-alcohol mixture to the bulkhead just aft of the engine. A line from this tank
was plumbed directly into the fuel intake. When injected into the combustion chamber, the water checked a
dangerous rise in cylinder head temperature while manifold pressure was boosted. For brief instants, a
15-percent increase in engine power could be obtained, giving a maximum war emergency power of 2300
hp. In the D-5-RE, D-6-RE, and D-10-RE (D-4-RA, production bolcks, the pilot manually controlled the
water flow of the injector, but the injection procedure was automatically- controlled on the D-11-RE
(D-11-RA) and subsequent blocks. This happened when the throttle was pushed forward into its last
half-inch of travel.

Production batches from the D-20 onward were fitted with a "universal" wing which could carry a variety
of drop tanks or bombs.  These batches also introduced the R-2800-59 engine with an improved ignition
system. The power was the same as that of the -63, with a war emergency power output of 2300 hp.

Production batches D-22-RE and D-23-RA, a 13' diameter paddle-bladed propeller (either a Hamilton
Standard Hydromatic 24E50-65 or a Curtiss Electric C542S) was fitted to make full use of the additional
power provided by water injection.  Blocks D-22-RE and D-23-RA were also provided with a jettisonable
cockpit canopy which was activated by the pilot pulling a ring.  A bullet-proof windshield was fitted, and
internal fuel capacity was increased.

Offline Seadog36

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #118 on: April 12, 2014, 06:57:24 PM »
I want to add another note about my stance on the P-47D-23.  I don't oppose the addition of the P-47D-23 at this time for the same reasons I oppose the Mustang Mk Ia or cannon armed A-20G.  Unlike those requests the request for the P-47D-23 would have no negative effect on the game. You are asking for a reasonable and appropriate aircraft.  You want it because of its history and role and I respect that.

Geez Karnak~ No negative effect, reasonable and appropriate...I'll be happy for you guys if you get it! Sounds like the D-23 is a must have for the game! You are just as good as I am at selling this thing :rolleyes: Enough with the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde!

Offline Karnak

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Re: Ready for the P-47D15-23 series
« Reply #119 on: April 12, 2014, 07:03:56 PM »
Yeah, we're just quibbling about where it stands in the priority list.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-