Food for thought ...

[Changeup]

1. I have often tried to help new players.  I love helping new players, it allows me to put something back into the game as I got a lot of help when I was learning in FA.
2. I know how to get out of a HO'ing situation.  However, the ho'er usually just runs away after a failed ho and has no concept of how to actually fight.
3. Hmmm.
4. I never tune to 200.  I looked at it once, facepalmed and never went back.
5. The problem is getting 1 to 1 fights, or even small even numbers, where all the combatants are even slightly interested in playing a flight sim.
6.  Point taken, lol
7.  Hmmm.
8.  "Get tougher".  I used to play at a quite a high level in World of Warcraft which was more hardcore than AH has ever been or ever needs to be.

I have tried to be part of a solution.  The whole point of this thread was to generate interest from others who feel the same way.

One to one fights are virtually impossible in the MA.  Shidas point was that people have to be realistic with their expectations and 1 v 1 in the MA is an unreasonable expectation.  However, join us in the DA on Friday nights after FSO and you'll get all you want from some of the best guys in the game.  They'll help you too.   

[Hoplite]

If 'hardcore' is used in terms of 'psychologically abrasive', he's not wrong.  As much as we say this community's going to hell in a handbasket, it is NOTHING compared to other games.  Imagine a world where Manawar and Midway are a couple of the nicer, more interesting people you run into.


Wiley.

Having played Day of Defeat Source like a madman for several years....I can attest this is generally true.  

However, I've find that games that, like AH, are more "realistic" or "simulation" based tend to attract more level-headed and mature indivduals.  Games like Red Orchestra (Panther fighting on the Arad map.....woowho!), IL2 1946, Rise of Flight, DCS, Falcon 4 Allied Force / OpenFalcon.  It's not a hard and fast rule, but in general the communities have a bit more mature outlook and behavior.

[Hoplite]

One to one fights are virtually impossible in the MA.  Shidas point was that people have to be realistic with their expectations and 1 v 1 in the MA is an unreasonable expectation.  However, join us in the DA on Friday nights after FSO and you'll get all you want from some of the best guys in the game.  They'll help you too.   

Depends on where and how you fight....but in general I agree.  Thus my eariler statement about the need to not train new guys that a HO is "dishonorable", but rather that its a stupid way to try to win a fight. 

[DmonSlyr]

Depends on where and how you fight....but in general I agree.  Thus my eariler statement about the need to not train new guys that a HO is "dishonorable", but rather that its a stupid way to try to win a fight. 

Every one bitxhes and complains about getting HOed when in actuality they are so easy to avoid. Funny how the MA constantly complains about that. But when I get pissed off and complain about getting vulched landing on the run way about to hit .ef with 6 kills I get and I think it's the most dishonorable thing in the game. "well thats war, shouldn't have landed there" even though I have  PW and Oil leak. You can't avoid that lame crap.  So honestly ive no simpathy for people who complain about getting HO when its their fault for not having the ACM to avoid and capitalize on it.

[glzsqd]

Every one bitxhes and complains about getting HOed when in actuality they are so easy to avoid. Funny how the MA constantly complains about that. But when I get pissed off and complain about getting vulched landing on the run way about to hit .ef with 6 kills I get and I think it's the most dishonorable thing in the game. "well thats war, shouldn't have landed there" even though I have  PW and Oil leak. You can't avoid that lame crap.  So honestly ive no simpathy for people who complain about getting HO when its their fault for not having the ACM to avoid and capitalize on it.

Not every HO shot is from a first merge position, I usually get Ho'd when I'm in a 4v1 and my p40 is having an asthma attack trying to keep up with la7s and spit16s.

[Wiley]

Having played Day of Defeat Source like a madman for several years....I can attest this is generally true.  

However, I've find that games that, like AH, are more "realistic" or "simulation" based tend to attract more level-headed and mature indivduals.  Games like Red Orchestra (Panther fighting on the Arad map.....woowho!), IL2 1946, Rise of Flight, DCS, Falcon 4 Allied Force / OpenFalcon.  It's not a hard and fast rule, but in general the communities have a bit more mature outlook and behavior.

I can't remember if it was this thread or another one, but someone in the last few days was talking about how WWII flight sims morphed from a community of flight enthusiasts to a community of PvP gamers.  Regardless I reiterate it because that's a pretty accurate description.

The players make the gameplay.  The players take whatever the path of least resistance is, be it hording, vulching, HOing, or running.  There is nothing that can be done about that in an open-world multiplayer game.  The freedom is what makes this game.  If I wanted to have fair fights and to be told what to do when, I'd be playing something rounds based like WT.

Like Hoplite says, I wish more people would press the point that HOing is stupid, rather than dishonorable.  I still say complaining about HOing is essentially saying, "He got his guns on me and had the audacity to actually pull the trigger!" but that's another thread.

Not every HO shot is from a first merge position, I usually get Ho'd when I'm in a 4v1 and my p40 is having an asthma attack trying to keep up with la7s and spit16s.

At that point the 'HO' is less of an issue than the 'gangbang' and he's giving you a gift by giving you the opportunity to return fire.

Wiley.

[Hoplite]

Every one bitxhes and complains about getting HOed when in actuality they are so easy to avoid. Funny how the MA constantly complains about that. But when I get pissed off and complain about getting vulched landing on the run way about to hit .ef with 6 kills I get and I think it's the most dishonorable thing in the game. "well thats war, shouldn't have landed there" even though I have  PW and Oil leak. You can't avoid that lame crap.  So honestly ive no simpathy for people who complain about getting HO when its their fault for not having the ACM to avoid and capitalize on it.

I'm not complaining.  HOs happen. My point is: Teach new guys that they WILL receive HO attempts, why the person doing so is a fool, how to avoid the attack, and (to your point) capitalize on the other guys foolishness.  Stop focusing on its "bad gameplay" or "if you do this you are a dishonerable jerk" crap....because many DO NOT CARE.  It's a School of Hard Knocks approach, rather than touchy-feely-be-a-standup-guy BS. 

Will it work with all?  No...because you can't fix stupid.  But I'm betting it will work on more than a few because many DO focus on surviving and score...and HOs generally are not good for that.

[Hoplite]

I still say complaining about HOing is essentially saying, "He got his guns on me and had the audacity to actually pull the trigger!" but that's another thread.

This is sig worthy.  Best damn thing I've read in here in a LONG time.   

[nrshida]

One to one fights are virtually impossible in the MA.  Shidas point was that people have to be realistic with their expectations and 1 v 1 in the MA is an unreasonable expectation.

Well maybe even simpler than that. They just want you dead and for the most part by any means necessary (this sometimes works in your favour in a 2 or 3 on 1 as they compete with each other for the kill).

I sometimes wish players would value the flying more than the result but it's only my minority opinion and I do seem to belong to a faction. I also value diversity. It's just about acceptance and doing your thing regardless and finding fun in that. There's a great moment in the 1971 film 'Le Mans' that sums it up perfectly when Elford's long tail Porsche passes McQueen's car. Just that momentary blink speaks volumes.

[Arlo]

Well maybe even simpler than that. They just want you dead and for the most part by any means necessary (this sometimes works in your favour in a 2 or 3 on 1 as they compete with each other for the kill).

I sometimes wish players would value the flying more than the result but it's only my minority opinion and I do seem to belong to a faction. I also value diversity. It's just about acceptance and doing your thing regardless and finding fun in that. There's a great moment in the 1971 film 'Le Mans' that sums it up perfectly when Elford's long tail Porsche passes McQueen's car. Just that momentary blink speaks volumes.

Noting the redeeming quality of being a McQueen fan. 

[Changeup]

Well maybe even simpler than that. They just want you dead and for the most part by any means necessary (this sometimes works in your favour in a 2 or 3 on 1 as they compete with each other for the kill).

I sometimes wish players would value the flying more than the result but it's only my minority opinion and I do seem to belong to a faction. I also value diversity. It's just about acceptance and doing your thing regardless and finding fun in that. There's a great moment in the 1971 film 'Le Mans' that sums it up perfectly when Elford's long tail Porsche passes McQueen's car. Just that momentary blink speaks volumes.

This is tantamount to becoming a student of ACM.  Results-focused people are lost in defining themselves on results, not the process of improvement.  As an example, it's why great hitters never make it to the bigs...at the first sign of a slump, they begin to focus on the result...a hit, instead of the process of hitting, mental preparation, timing, attitude and having a plan when you step in the box.

Playing this game at a high level and driving fights you can win require, nay, demand that you become a student of ACM which is the process of flying well enough to win fights.

Soooo, find a guy you trust, ask him questions, go to the TA so egos don't get bruised and learn.  You'll be glad you did.

[Skyyr]

The reason for avoiding the HO came about originally in sims in pure 1v1 duels on the INITIAL pass, where a lucky single round would stop the fight before it even started. Usually "cold guns" (or "cold pass") was called to allow both pilots to set up their merge to their preference and allow for a truly equal-ground starting point. Once the merge occurred, anything was (and should be) fair game. And why shouldn't it be? If the opponent can gets their guns on you after the merge, that's YOUR fault. Head-on passes are actually a valid tactic and they were used in WWII, especially by aircraft that grossly out-armed their opponent (namely the Germans in their Wurgers).

This rule has been true in every single flight sim I've flown (including Fighter Ace, CFS1+2, WWII Online, etc.)... yet for some reason this community has a homophobic aversion to EVERY type of head-on pass for no logical reason, as if it's somehow dishonorable.

Never mind the fact that it quite literally takes two complacent pilots to perform a head-on pass, this is a air combat simulator. Projecting moral superiority and crying about a head-on pass while attempting to kill your opponent by shooting him in the back is most hypocritical stance I've seen yet in a flight sim.

[Changeup]

The reason for avoiding the HO came about originally in sims in pure 1v1 duels on the INITIAL pass, where a lucky single round would stop the fight before it even started. Usually "cold guns" (or "cold pass") was called to allow both pilots to set up their merge to their preference and allow for a truly equal-ground starting point. Once the merge occurred, anything was (and should be) fair game. And why shouldn't it be? If the opponent can gets their guns on you after the merge, that's YOUR fault. Head-on passes are actually a valid tactic and they were used in WWII, especially by aircraft that grossly out-arm their opponent (namely the Germans in their Wurgers).

This rule has been true in every single flight sim I've flown (including Fighter Ace, CFS1+2, WWII Online, etc.)... yet for some reason this community has a homophobic aversion to EVERY type of head-on pass for no logical reason, as if it's somehow dishonorable.

Never mind the fact that it quite literally takes two complacent pilots to perform a head-on pass, this is a air combat simulator. Projecting moral superiority and crying about a head-on pass while attempting to kill your opponent by shooting him in the back is most hypocritical stance I've seen yet in a flight sim.

That's because it's a tactic of the half-skilled AH aviator...a HOer is only skilled enough to get halfway to their opponents 6 o'clock.   If you're happy with that skill set, play on.   Don't expect others who try to fly well enough to saddle you up like hobo on a soup bowl to approve of that style of winning.

Personally, I could care less...as JUGgler always said, "there's way too much revenge in the hanger to worry about a skill less killer"

Edit:  it's like bunting all the time in baseball...there is a time and place for it but not very often and if you do it a lot, there aren't any players that will respect your bat.

[Debrody]

Half way towards someones six is the 3-9 line though.
3-9 line shots will never make anyone to complain.

[Changeup]

Half way towards someones six is the 3-9 line though.
3-9 line shots will never make anyone to complain.

I'm fairly certain you got the point though and if you didn't, I'll be more than happy to explain it to you in PMs.