Solution to Head-On

[miko2d]

 Hi guys,

 I am going to suggest a solution that is a departure from realism. Usually I am against such solutions but in this case it could be used to offset the two huge unrealistic and unfixable things inherently present in the game.

1. Head-On frequency. Pilots in RL are much more concerned about staying alive and not letting enemy shoot at them then shooting at the enemy. It does not matter that the enemy plane may be lighter armed or armored. One single bullet through the windshield travelling at combined speed of both planes plus it's own velocity is enough to ruin your day. And the enemy does not even have to aim, because you are putting yourself right into his bulls-eye.
 Yes, there were occasional or desperation-driven Head-Ons, but blowing a 10K altitude advantage just to HO instead of taking 20 seconds to outmaneuver the enemy? Incredible.
 The reason for this is the fact that FOD (fear-of-death) cannot be simulated in the main arena. Killing is a huge inconvinience in RL and the actual reason why the war is conducted. Making a war sim without a large penalty for dying is extremely unrealistic. Unfortunately nothing can be done about that.

2. Net lag. We all know that the net/server lag is unavoidable and that it affects different situations differently. Unfortunately it affects the Head-On situation much more then other situations because of the much greater combined speed of closure.
 In real life it is usually possible to avoid the HO. In this sim your avoidance move will be visible to the enemy 2 seconds later. So while trying to avoid, you will still be flying straight in his sights and in 2 seconds the HO is usually over. There is NO WAY to avoid the HO, so you may as well try to shoot down the other guy.

 Here is my unrealistic solution: using that detailed damage system make the front aspect of the fighter plane much harder - windshield, front of the engine, front edges of the wings, rudder and stabiliser. Attacking planes from the front will suddenly become much less attractive. People will have to engage in actual ACM and outmaneuver the enemy to get a better shot.

 Obviously, this fix will screw up something else, like ground ACK fire and bomber's gunners fire or attacking a bomber head-on - those are the natural situations involving shooting the plane's front aspect. Could the HO fire be toned down only if it comes from fighter to fighter? Otherwise flying skill becomes much less important and the combat gets reduced to the "point and shoot with a biggest gun" like in Quake.

 What do you think?

miko--

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 03-22-2000).]

[LowJoe]

Here's something also that doesn't make sense (takes away from realism) in the game. If I want to take F2, it makes greater sense to shoot the enemy down, then let him float in the chute instead of shooting it. Thus, he doesn't respawn and get back in the air asap. Thus, more time for my side to gain air superiority and take the base.

If I get hit, I want to bail (save score as well). If I'm at 9k feet, it takes time to get to the ground. In bomber sorties, I've bailed and it takes like 10 minutes plus to hit the ground from 25k. I PRAY that somebody shoots my chute to get me back in the game faster. If chutes were not shot, the pilots (although having a better score because the weren't killed) are penalized for being shot down by the time it takes to land the chute.

Just my little rant...

[Vermillion]

Sorry Miko, but...

No way, no how !!

Basically, what you are suggesting is a return to AirWarrior ridiculous, forward "cone of invulnerability" (tm). Over there, the server throws out something like 95% of all front quarter hits.

Not only is this incredibly unrealistic, but it teachs really bad ACM.

I can honestly understand some people's dislike of HO shots. But then again there is an old saying "It takes two to HO".  The painful, but honest truth is that if you don't want to die by the HO, don't go for it yourself.

Over 90% of the time, it is possible to both avoid the HO and gain an advantageous position on the guy trying to for the HO shot.

If anyone is having problems with avoiding HO's, I suggest a little time in the Training Arena, with some of the Trainers. A couple of hours work, and its easy.

I apologize if I sound harsh, but the very last thing I want to see happen is for the game to be unrealistically "gimped", when there are solutions such as better training.

[Edit: And to answer the obvious question, no, I don't take HO's myself]

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-22-2000).]

[miko2d]

Vermillion,
  I have never seen the Air Warrior, so I came to the "ridiculous solution" all by myself. I am sure that people that wrote AW were not complete idiots themselves.

 Also if you read other threads on this board, you will see that it does not "take two for HO" and if you reread my post, you will see the physical explanation for it - namely FOD and net lag. The problem is there and it is quite real. HO is very popular, much more popular then it was in the real war. If it were so easy to avoid, not many people would have been trying it.
 While it is possible, as you say, to **slightly** reduce your chances to die in HO after many hours of training, many novices will come in to try the game, get blown repeatedly by HO dweebs and say "#@$% you, this game is not realistic!" and go away to play the EAW. Then HT and his crew will starve to death and  that will be the end of AH.

 You cannot require players to have 1000 hours of flying time before they start enjoying the game or require voluntary policing themselves and not exploiting bugs/inacuracies/deficiencies in the game like no death, unlimited planes or sub-orbital bombers. It never worked and never will.

 I did not claim my solution was realistic, merely said it would reduce even less realistic behavior. Probably less then 1% of the planes in WWII were downed during head-ons. If we unrealisticaly restrict people from doing that - is it a big deal? And I never said the invulnerability should be complete, just significantly reduced. So you could still damage the enemy during the HO, but then would have to engage and finish him off. You will even have your hit percentage intact.

Regards,
miko--

[Mighty1]

LowJoe here is a tip...don't pull the ripcord till you are low.

It doesn't take very long to freefall from 25k.

Just be sure to pull the cord in time to open chute and slow down.

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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals

"Come try to club THIS Seal"

[Wardog]

miko..

What you are suggesting is Front Deflector Sheilds.. Is this a flight sim or a space sim...

Takes 2 to HO.. It very easy to avoid. My suggestion is,if ya dont want to die in the HO merge a hard roll or tight bank or any of 6 or 7 other moves to avoid it.

But lets stay away from the Foce Field thing... common sence good SA and a little ACM go a long way..

Anyway,ill HO any F4U,Spit,109,190 with my p51.. 95% of the time the guy with cannons will go for the HO..

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-= Death From Behind =-



[This message has been edited by Wardog (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Miko, where did I say that you can learn to **slighty** reduce the chance of dying to the HO, by spending thousands of hours training?

My words were:
 

Over 90% of the time, it is possible to both avoid the HO and gain an advantageous position on the guy trying to for the HO shot.

That means 9 passes out of 10, YOU will gain the advantage if he goes for the HO.

Spend 3 hours in the Training arena with Lephturn or Popeye (or really any trainer), and I bet you hardly ever have a problem with HO's again. And thats to learn all the "advanced" tricks. Most people can learn two simple avoidance techniques in one hour.

If your skeptical, I offer my own time in the TA, and will let you take as many HO passes at me as you wish, to prove the point. And I am an average pilot at best.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"

[humble]

HO's are not a major issue here. Stop by the training arena and any one of the trainers can show you how to avoid at least 80% of the HO's.

[Hangtime]

Aye; What Verm and Wardog said!

Hang

[miko2d]

 OK guys,
 I appreciate the offers of help
 May be I exagerated a bit. But there is a lot of complaints on this board from people who have trouble avoiding HO. And there is a lot of people trying it.

 Let me demonstrate my point mathematically:
1. You are flying at 225mph
2. Enemy dives at you acceletaring at about 450mph
3. Total closure speed is 675mph or 968,000 yards/hour or 330 yards/sec
4. His position/speed on your display becomes further from the reality because his speed increases, so you notice his actions later. On his display he sees you where you are because your speed is constant.
5. Let's say you realise he is HOing when he is at D12 indicated and break immediately. He starts shooting at the same moment.
6. At that moment you may be at D11 indicated on his display (see 4).
7. For 2 more seconds you are flying straight and level on his display, 2x330 = 660 yards.
8. He is shooting at you flying straight from D11 to D4 with combined speed increasing penetration of his rounds.
9. His front end sees his shells hitting you at D4 and sends an update to your FE.
10. In two more seconds he is D2 behind you, nowhere close to getting a shot at you **according to your display**.
11. At that moment the bullet hit update from his FE arrives and you suddenly die! That is pretty much the way people describe their death in HO.

 If you do not realise at D12 that he is trying to HO and let him in closer, if you are a bit late with your evasion, if he or you are flying faster, if his or your lag is worse - you have no chance to affect the outcome.

 Large combined net lag is a friend to a HO dweeb.
 Obviously a guy with a huge net lag has an advantage over other players if he is the one flying a fast bird and initiating Head-Ons.

 I am not saying that "forward deflection shields" are realistic. I am just saying that the net lag and the absence of FOD is more unrealistic.
 For guys who fly realistically and avoid HO the "forward deflector shields" will rarely matter. It's not like you are going to hide behind them - you still get some damage if hit, and if you are just flying straight while the enemy may be reversing on you (remember that lag), he will get a positional advantage and saddle up on your 6.

miko--

[RangerBob]

Verm is right.

Only those of us that have come over from Airwarrior will understand. They have introduced exactly what has been suggested and it's terrible.

Pilots that have come from Airwarrior usually have a terrible time trying to shake the habit of flying directly at the HO end of an enemy, because in Airwarrior that's your safest move if your in trouble.

In real life it's your worst move.

Ranger Bob

[Spatula]

I Avoid HO like the plague itself. I find them very easy to avoid. Why Take the HO when you die (or get badly damaged) 4 out of five times? See my reply to SCDuckwing6's post on gunnery in the help and training thread.

More often than the HO person is higher than you and they waste all their E off the bat with a stupid HO attempt that WILL fail when countered properly. So bring em on, i like to kill idiots.

I dont want an invincible front end (bullet proof 6 would be nice   ) it would probably lead to more HO's or bad ACM habits. Just say NO to cone of invincibility.

To the 2nd guy who posted (forgot name - sry) dont open your chute till your about 1-2K off the deck depending on how far you have fallen. Secondly rather than killing a base defender, play with him, drag him away, give enuf to keep him interested but not get yourself killed. If you kill him - he'll up again over the feild. You want a wingman with you for this...


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Supreme Mega-Overlord Spatula

"...perfect for serving"
 

=357th Pony Express=

[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Karnak]

Could one of you guys give me some advice on what kind of manuever to use to avoid HOs?

I agree that the "forward shields" would be a bad idea and end up getting people into bad ACM habits.

I'd appriciate the suggestions on what do do to avoid the HO.

Kiitos

Sisu

[Hangtime]

The best is to get some angle off.. then barrel roll as he gets close; avoid remaining 'in plane' with him and fer chrisakes don't hold still while he hoses yah.  

My personal favorite is the 'duck'.   Get under him. Kick in all your rudder and/or roll as he gets inside gun range. I usually pull my lift vector into his direction of travel as he goes by. This could be called a 'pre-turn'. I don't often get tagged in a HO. If we are anywhere near energy parity; when he goes by; he's MINE.  

As he goes by; eyeball his energy and inclinations and counter as appropriate. There are several discussions on this in the Help and Training forum and I strongly reccomend Shaw's book "Air Combat; Tactics and Manuvering" as the definitive text on how to stay alive in Aces High.

If you see me on line and would like some help; give a shout and we'll go to the practice arena and give it a go.. you'll be pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to stay alive; and put the other guy in a bag.  

Best of luck!

Hang

[coyote]

This thread is pointless... I HAVE NEVER BEEN FORCED INTO A HEAD ON GUNS PASS. People who cry about HO passes, choose to engage in them of their own free will then get mad when the results are not what they hoped for...  


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Coyote