Radical Idea About HOing

[nrshida]

Over the years I've read countless threads about HOing and even participated in a few. There's hardly been a single session I've flown when someone or other isn't typing 'nice HO' or 'you Hoing b**tard' etc. None of these threads and not one of these complaints has ever put and end to HOing (note: we can't say it doesn't reduce it because the cultural pressure is continuous).

In Aces High it's almost become synomomous with swearing, it's not acceptable but there's an awful lot of it going about. I've seen more bitter complaints and more discord amongst players over the HO than any other aspect of gameplay, so a weird thought occured to me: what if we as a community stopped complaining about the HO and accepted it instead.

Now bear with me here. I'm suggesting we include and embrace the HO as part of acceptable fighting. I mean a shot from and into any aspect. No discussion of both or only one party having a shot, no debate over angles of deflection, simply give your oppoenent a guns solution - any solution - and get shot.

So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to get HOed out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect TO GET HOed every time. Those that have been objecting to HOing on the grounds it is unskillful now have the responsibility to learn how to avoid it and can't complain if they get brought down. Thus this hole in the skill set of those who want a good, fair or skillful fight becomes filled.

Those that HO presently do not gain anything nor lose anything save the end of negative comments (which they apparently don't care about anyway).

For those that dislike getting HOed the burden of responsibility shifts onto temselves instead of expected behaviour from another player which I think we can all agree is only a recipe for dissapointment, annoyance and discord. In AH culture the HO is the only circumstance in a 1 on 1 fight where your safety is not your own responsibility but that of your opponent. This is illogical and unrealistic in the context of this combative virtual environment.


Employing the same 'persuasion by negative comments' approach which is demonstrably not working over and over year in, year out is the definition of futility. How about a paradigm shift instead?

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Over the years I've read countless threads about HOing and even participated in a few. There's hardly been a single session I've flown when someone or other isn't typing 'nice HO' or 'you Hoing b**tard' etc. None of these threads and not one of these complaints has ever put and end to HOing (note: we can't say it doesn't reduce it because the cultural pressure is continuous).

In Aces High it's almost become synomomous with swearing, it's not acceptable but there's an awful lot of it going about. I've seen more bitter complaints and more discord amongst players over the HO than any other aspect of gameplay, so a weird thought occured to me: what if we as a community stopped complaining about the HO and accepted it instead.

Now bear with me here. I'm suggesting we include and embrace the HO as part of acceptable fighting. I mean a shot from and into any aspect. No discussion of both or only one party having a shot, no debate over angles of deflection, simply give your oppoenent a guns solution - any solution - and get shot.

So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to get HOed out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect TO GET HOed every time. Those that have been objecting to HOing on the grounds it is unskillful now have the responsibility to learn how to avoid it and can't complain if they get brought down. Thus this hole in the skill set of those who want a good, fair or skillful fight becomes filled.

Those that HO presently do not gain anything nor lose anything save the end of negative comments (which they apparently don't care about anyway).

For those that dislike getting HOed the burden of responsibility shifts onto temselves instead of expected behaviour from another player which I think we can all agree is only a recipe for dissapointment, annoyance and discord. In AH culture the HO is the only circumstance in a 1 on 1 fight where your safety is not your own responsibility but that of your opponent. This is illogical and unrealistic in the context of this combative virtual environment.


Employing the same 'persuasion by negative comments' approach which is demonstrably not working over and over year in, year out is the definition of futility. How about a paradigm shift instead?

Head on attack is a historically accurate method that was considered brave or foolish since you had a high chance of getting killed simultaneously with your enemy. In game youre not scared of death so a HO is much easyer as a choice. I find HOs irritating only when players use it in situations where they could easily perform safer manouvers instead. For example if a player chooses to always turn to head-on when flying in a much more manouverable plane, instead of manouvering for a side shot.

[Xavier]

As MrRiplEy said, HO are historically accurate. I've found that some people give me grief for using it, or even for accepting a HO they initiated...but just when they go down first  . Don't want a HO? Push your nose down, give it some rudder and turn sideways as soon as you're in 1K range. 

And please, please don't call me dirty names for accepting the HO you initiated. Specially if I'm flying a 190A8 and you're in a P40...you hear me, RotBaron?   

[Randy1]

Last night I had a HO with a spit.  The spit was coming down at a shallow angle and I was going up with a shallow angle in a 47 at the top of a climb out and speed low.  I got in the situation because of failed SA.  I made a mistake.   

Now, if I break away I give the spit my six or worse.  Bad idea.  He was obviously lining up for the shot so I did the same and won the HO.  He could have avoided the HO and easily got on my six but he went for the kill.  Now am I bad guy or the spit guy?

I agree with the OP.  HO is not a dirty word but something I have to do if I get caught slow or stupid and the other plane sets up a HO.  Some of the higher performance planes in this situation would have had more options but a big heavy plane has few when speed is slow.

HO happens.  The winner is often labeled a Ho'er the looser a victim.

[Oldman731]

So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to get HOed out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect TO GET HOed every time.

Wise idea, at least when flying in the MAs.  Also a most excellent way to get a quick initial read of your opponent's skill level.

- oldman

[Arlo]

Over the years I've read countless threads about HOing and even participated in a few. There's hardly been a single session I've flown when someone or other isn't typing 'nice HO' or 'you Hoing b**tard' etc. None of these threads and not one of these complaints has ever put and end to HOing (note: we can't say it doesn't reduce it because the cultural pressure is continuous).

In Aces High it's almost become synomomous with swearing, it's not acceptable but there's an awful lot of it going about. I've seen more bitter complaints and more discord amongst players over the HO than any other aspect of gameplay, so a weird thought occured to me: what if we as a community stopped complaining about the HO and accepted it instead.

Now bear with me here. I'm suggesting we include and embrace the HO as part of acceptable fighting. I mean a shot from and into any aspect. No discussion of both or only one party having a shot, no debate over angles of deflection, simply give your oppoenent a guns solution - any solution - and get shot.

So now the expectation changes, instead of expecting NOT to get HOed out of the anticipation of sporting behaviour we expect TO GET HOed every time. Those that have been objecting to HOing on the grounds it is unskillful now have the responsibility to learn how to avoid it and can't complain if they get brought down. Thus this hole in the skill set of those who want a good, fair or skillful fight becomes filled.

Those that HO presently do not gain anything nor lose anything save the end of negative comments (which they apparently don't care about anyway).

For those that dislike getting HOed the burden of responsibility shifts onto temselves instead of expected behaviour from another player which I think we can all agree is only a recipe for dissapointment, annoyance and discord. In AH culture the HO is the only circumstance in a 1 on 1 fight where your safety is not your own responsibility but that of your opponent. This is illogical and unrealistic in the context of this combative virtual environment.


Employing the same 'persuasion by negative comments' approach which is demonstrably not working over and over year in, year out is the definition of futility. How about a paradigm shift instead?

Seems you've shifted to my perspective. 

[nrshida]

Wise idea, at least when flying in the MAs.  Also a most excellent way to get a quick initial read of your opponent's skill level.

And his intentions. Good insight Oldman.
 

Seems you've shifted to my perspective. 

I don't know what your perspective is and I'm wary of being trolled so this might be a short conversation but I will say my personal values haven't changed at all. This is a bit of a subtle shift I'm suggesting in general opinion and behaviour. I still won't HO myself because I know my odds are much much better if I employ my ACM. I do note it took me considerable investment to reach that point however.

[Hoplite]

No argument here.   But I feel strongly we send the wrong messages to new and old players about HOing.  As a community we tend to focus on communicating that HOing is "dishonorable".  I don't think that's an effective education approach and it actually exacerbates the problem of name calling, negative chatter on 200, while doing nothing to decrease the number of HO attempts by new and old players.

Player education and training needs to be grounded in the hard reality of MA fighting rather than the sanitary conditions of the 1v1 DA duelist.  The new guy needs to learn (sometimes the hard way) why the HO shot isn't the smartest to take and, most importantly, how to avoid these shots rather than simply assuming some obscure "point of honor" will keep the other guy from pulling the trigger.

Nose off a few degrees, add a bit of vet, viola...HO missed and fight reset.  Eventually the new guy will also learn how to do more than just reset the fight but take advantage through timing and good shooting.

I'm not complaining.  HOs happen. My point is: Teach new guys that they WILL receive HO attempts, why the person doing so is a fool, how to avoid the attack, and (to your point) capitalize on the other guys foolishness.  Stop focusing on its "bad gameplay" or "if you do this you are a dishonerable jerk" crap....because many DO NOT CARE.  It's a School of Hard Knocks approach, rather than touchy-feely-be-a-standup-guy BS. 

Will it work with all?  No...because you can't fix stupid.  But I'm betting it will work on more than a few because many DO focus on surviving and score...and HOs generally are not good for that.

Pointed the same out several weeks ago, Shida.  Don't expect to get much buy in buy I agree with you 100% and it's the way I've flown for years. 

[DmonSlyr]

Well just go ahead and keep using the HO as a way to avoid ACM and just get owned by me when I see it coming, dodge it, and pull a nice loop snap shot on you. Works every time. Cmon HO me all you want, I need more kills!

And BTW, I always expect to get HOed, so I set up an angle for a maneuver while they are desperately trying to hit me. They miss every time and I end up on there 6 quicker than lightening.

[Wiley]

Agreed.  Every merge I get in the MA I'm expecting them to shoot.  I've been learning to press the advantage it gives me lately and have been having quite a bit of success with it.  Can't believe I didn't figure it out sooner.

I'm curious if they ever implement FPS play in this game, will the 'honorable' thing to do will be to stand out in the open, when you see the other guy wave at him or fire a warning shot in front of him to let him know you're there, then walk to cover and start fighting.  Would be about the same thing as whining about the HO.

Wiley.

[Arlo]

And his intentions. Good insight Oldman.
 

I don't know what your perspective is and I'm wary of being trolled so this might be a short conversation but I will say my personal values haven't changed at all. This is a bit of a subtle shift I'm suggesting in general opinion and behaviour. I still won't HO myself because I know my odds are much much better if I employ my ACM. I do note it took me considerable investment to reach that point however.

I'm pretty sure our values were never as out of synch as you might have percieved. 

[Copprhed]

As many knights know, and anyone who looks at my stats know, my main ride has become the 110G2. I fly it like a twin engined spit 5, lol. It's a great plane, more maneuverable than many think and has a superior gun package of 4 20mm cannons and two 30mm cannons with ammo loadouts of 1155 and 255 respectively. I am constantly amazed that more often than not people still come at me head on. This has led me to the very same opinion that my sensei has offered. If someone wants to h2h me in my 110G2, I let them, and give them a face full of 20s and 30s, which more often than not leads them to a big BOOM! I still work to get kills by using ACM's which works pretty well, as many folks don't expect a 100 to turnfight as well as they do. I quit complaining about HO's because it does no good, and just gets my mood into a poor condition, which is NOT why I play the game.
Folks, avoid the HO, it's easier than you think and makes for a more satisfying kill when you reverse them and kill them.

[Hoplite]

As many knights know, and anyone who looks at my stats know, my main ride has become the 110G2. I fly it like a twin engined spit 5, lol. It's a great plane, more maneuverable than many think and has a superior gun package of 4 20mm cannons and two 30mm cannons with ammo loadouts of 1155 and 255 respectively. I am constantly amazed that more often than not people still come at me head on. This has led me to the very same opinion that my sensei has offered. If someone wants to h2h me in my 110G2, I let them, and give them a face full of 20s and 30s, which more often than not leads them to a big BOOM! I still work to get kills by using ACM's which works pretty well, as many folks don't expect a 100 to turnfight as well as they do. I quit complaining about HO's because it does no good, and just gets my mood into a poor condition, which is NOT why I play the game.
Folks, avoid the HO, it's easier than you think and makes for a more satisfying kill when you reverse them and kill them.

It constantly amazed me how many wanted to HO me while flying a 110G.  I think I surprised many when I would dodging or vector off rather than return fire.  But every now and then the mood would strike me to just pull the trigger.  I usually died but the other guy never made it home either....a painful "object lession". 

[zack1234]

Shida is this a troll?

[nrshida]

Pointed the same out several weeks ago, Shida.  Don't expect to get much buy in buy I agree with you 100% and it's the way I've flown for years. 

Sorry mate I missed your posts there. 

Well just go ahead and keep using the HO as a way to avoid ACM and just get owned by me when I see it coming, dodge it, and pull a nice loop snap shot on you. Works every time. Cmon HO me all you want, I need more kills!

And BTW, I always expect to get HOed...

 

Folks, avoid the HO, it's easier than you think...

You have snatched the pebbles from my hand my friend.

Shida is this a troll?

No pimpy, this is a deep philosophical concept. Get your head out of a pie and think it through