F4U Turning surprise

[BnZs]

You are talking about 1 vs 1... Now change it into 2 vs 2 with team work... the story changes completely. Hellcat stands no chance.

Rather a bad overstatement.  It is a textbook angles vs. energy fighter match, and there are effective section tactics for both sides of that coin. Honestly I'd say assuming a sterile co-e 2v2, the Dora pilots will need to be more experienced to avoid being forced to die or run.

[Widewing]

You are talking about 1 vs 1... Now change it into 2 vs 2 with team work... the story changes completely. Hellcat stands no chance.

No chance? Murdr and I teamed up in Hellcats against a pair of well known, highly experienced 109K-4 drivers for a 4 man duel. Both K-4 drivers were in the tower in less than two minutes. After the first merge, the K-4 guys never saw either of us in their gun sights. The Dora does not worry me. One dimensional, BnZ, energy tactics often means dead if forced into a low speed fight. Better static climb doesn't help in a duel, especially after a Co-E merge. Dueling takes away the Dora's one tactical advantage: Extending half a sector to reverse. You are not allowed to disengage, gotta stay and fight. Even the MA, the best the Dora driver will ever get is nose on nose. When frustration sets in, he may push harder for angles. If he does, risk goes up quickly.

Spend some time in fighters with more balanced performance. It'll make you a better pilot. Fly an I-16, Hurricane or FM-2 some, you'll learn a lot about how to spoil a BnZ fighter's day.

[artik]

... One dimensional, BnZ, energy tactics often means dead if forced into a low speed fight ...

That is exactly why I said 2 vs 2... I wouldn't BnZ  with my wingman the F6F I'll just put them into a trap each time they try to get on ours 6.

190D has better sustained turn ratio on high speeds - I mean at lets say if F6F would try to turn with Dora at 250-300mph it would loose energy while 190 would keep it. It would allow to attack you and than extend being covered by a wingman.

I for example wouldn't try to fight in a hard turns or running pure vertical maneuvers but rather manage high speed fights controlling attack and extend.

Flying as a team would require entirely different tactics... We practiced such things once with our squadron and almost always when I met a team that works together they are very dangerous. Dora for F6F is almost what 262 for Mustang

[Saxman]

Widewing am I right in thinking that you had evidence that the F4U stall speed was too low in AH?

My understanding is that the corsair's stall speeds in game coincided with what was in the operator's manual with a reasonable margin for error.

[Widewing]

My understanding is that the corsair's stall speeds in game coincided with what was in the operator's manual with a reasonable margin for error.

Stall speed is spot on... Stability isn't. Chris Fahey told me that he can fly the F6F-5 down to 85 knots in landing configuration and it's a stable as a brick through maneuvers, including rolling into 45 degree banked turns. On the other hand, Chris says that the F4U-1A will want to snap inverted if he attempted that at 85 knots. The right wing spoiler reduced the tendency for unequal side wing stall, but did not completely eliminate it. This was exacerbated in a right hand, low speed turn, where the inside wing wants to stall first anyway. Chris also stated that the F6F's rudder was more effective than that of the F4U, probably due to its longer lever arm. Total vertical stabilizer area is also greater for the F6F, both fixed and movable (22 sq/ft total, 13 sq/ft movable for F4U, 24 sq/ft total, and 14 sq/ft movable for F6F). This allows for more effective countering of torque. If the F4U's rudder is more effective in the game, it shouldn't be.

[Lusche]

Yesterday I took the F4U-1D to the fight against Spit XVI... I was surprised how well it turned with several notches of flaps even against Spitfire XVI,

The real surprise in this is that someone actually used the F4U-D as a fighter and not as a suicide bombtruck only  

[nrshida]

Stall speed is spot on... Stability isn't. Chris Fahey told me that he can fly the F6F-5 down to 85 knots in landing configuration and it's a stable as a brick through maneuvers, including rolling into 45 degree banked turns. On the other hand, Chris says that the F4U-1A will want to snap inverted if he attempted that at 85 knots. The right wing spoiler reduced the tendency for unequal side wing stall, but did not completely eliminate it. This was exacerbated in a right hand, low speed turn, where the inside wing wants to stall first anyway.

I argued this very point a year ago after some flight testing of my own with several Corsair aficionados including Mtnman and was ultimately shouted down, dismissed and insulted.

[Widewing]

That is exactly why I said 2 vs 2... I wouldn't BnZ  with my wingman the F6F I'll just put them into a trap each time they try to get on ours 6.

Good luck with that....

190D has better sustained turn ratio on high speeds - I mean at lets say if F6F would try to turn with Dora at 250-300mph it would loose energy while 190 would keep it. It would allow to attack you and than extend being covered by a wingman.

Your wingman will be very busy trying to stay alive. It will end up with two 1v1 fights, until one screws up. Then it'll be two on one, and time for the surviving Dora to skedaddle while the gittin' is good.

I for example wouldn't try to fight in a hard turns or running pure vertical maneuvers but rather manage high speed fights controlling attack and extend.

That's what I meant about half sector extending. Run till there's enough separation to reverse (usually a climbing reverse). But, all that means is another merge, and then another, and another until the F6F pilot falls asleep from the boredom.

Flying as a team would require entirely different tactics... We practiced such things once with our squadron and almost always when I met a team that works together they are very dangerous. Dora for F6F is almost what 262 for Mustang

The difference isn't nearly that dramatic.

Too bad the F6F-6 was discontinued (the F8F was selected instead, and superior in every way). Basically, take an R-2800 C series engine, and the prop from the F4U-4 and install it in an F6F-5. 425 mph, 4,200 fpm climb and the maneuverability of the Hellcat. The -6 would have been in the fleet six months before the F8F-1, but the Navy felt that the -5 would be adequate until the Bearcat was deploying to combat (mid August of 1945).

[bozon]

What bothers me in AH much more than the missing 20mph at 20,000 of the F6F is that I keep snapping its wings off at high speeds. No warning, no bending metal sounds - just cough while holding the stick and off comes the wing. Quite surprising given its resistance to cannon damage. The P-47 may get its controls locked in a dive, but I never snapped a wing in it no matter how hard the pullout.

[Widewing]

What bothers me in AH much more than the missing 20mph at 20,000 of the F6F is that I keep snapping its wings off at high speeds. No warning, no bending metal sounds - just cough while holding the stick and off comes the wing. Quite surprising given its resistance to cannon damage. The P-47 may get its controls locked in a dive, but I never snapped a wing in it no matter how hard the pullout.

I don't think I've ever broken an F6F.... Then again, I fly the A-20 a lot, and smooth on the controls becomes muscle memory. Watch the video I posted above. 604 mph, groaning a bit. Nothing breaks.

[BnZs]

Better static climb doesn't help in a duel, especially after a Co-E merge.

What *is* the best tactic for a fighter whose primary advantage is better powerloading?

[Widewing]

What *is* the best tactic for a fighter whose primary advantage is better powerloading?

If You have equally skilled pilots, a Co-E engagement in the MA can result in tactical draw.

So, you have gauge the relative skill of the opposition. However, inasmuch as the initial tactical situation has almost limitless variation, one cannot paint with a broad brush. In dueling, with the tactical limits, there isn't much the better power loading fighter can do, but hope for an error. In the case of the Dora vs F6F in the MA, the Dora driver can always disengage and go looking for a less difficult challenge. They often do just that.. 

[Brooke]

Too bad the F6F-6 was discontinued (the F8F was selected instead, and superior in every way). Basically, take an R-2800 C series engine, and the prop from the F4U-4 and install it in an F6F-5.

Didn't the F8F also have the wing shape of a FW 190?

[save]

If the F6F had better roll rate at high speed I would be dead in 190a's many more times. They normally break off at 500-550 mph after some fast rolling.

The 51d in RL could not dive with a 109g6, where the 51b model could, I don't see that in AH, both models dive equally and catch 109's to its max speed.

It looks to me also that the f4u has the best gun platform of all .50 cal wing-mounted guns, inflicting damage up to 800, where the rest of them do it at 600.

[Widewing]

If the F6F had better roll rate at high speed I would be dead in 190a's many more times. They normally break off at 500-550 mph after some fast rolling.

The 51d in RL could not dive with a 109g6, where the 51b model could, I don't see that in AH, both models dive equally and catch 109's to its max speed.

It looks to me also that the f4u has the best gun platform of all .50 cal wing-mounted guns, inflicting damage up to 800, where the rest of them do it at 600.

Save, why wouldn't a P-51D dive as fast as a P-51B?